All Leaders Challenge Pre-Game Strategy Session: Montezuma

In my All Leaders Challenge thread in this forum, several people suggested having a pre-game strategy session before each new game with each leader so that I (any anyone else also playing the challenge) is not going into the game cold, with no ideas as to how to best leverage the leader-in-question's traits, UU, and founding techs.

(In case you didn't see that thread, my All Leaders Challenge is to play one game as each leader on your current level--mine is Prince--through to the end. I'm not going to say through to a win, as that could take several games. The only caveat is to skip leaders you've already been successful with on that level, and to especially try leaders you've never played as before.)

As I mentioned in the ALC thread, I've played and won as the Americans (Roosevelt and Washington), so I'm giving them a miss. I already played my Arabs/Saladin game, so next up is the Aztecs and everybody's pal, Montezuma. I remember someone mentioning that one of the best ways to ensure that you don't have the hyper-aggessive Aztec as a neighbour is to play as him. So that could count as a strategic advantage right there.

Montezuma has an interesting combination of traits: Spiritual and Aggressive. His starting techs line up with these: Mysticism and Hunting. Seems like a contradiction at first glance. Spiritual tends to lend itself to cultural wins, while Aggressive, obviously, points to conquest or domination. So your heart yearns to be one with the cosmos while your hands yearn to feel the death-rattle in your enemies' throats as you throttle them. Huh. No wonder Monty is kinda schizo.

Still, it seems to me that you can leverage this by using the Mysticism head start to collect religious techs, then use a Great Prophet or two to get Theology and maybe Feudalism ASAP for the Theocracy and Vassalage civics. Then Monty's units are getting 4 free XPs just from civics alone, on top of the free Combat promotion and the cheap barracks. Monty could, theoretically, be building Level 4 units (or the equivalent, 3 promotions) before 1 AD. And the free civics change means you can shift easily to peace-time civics to catch up tech-wise. Sounds like a recipe for conquest in early wars, all right. So, how does one get there? Discuss.

However, it seems a truth universally acknowledged that Monty's UU, the Jaguar, sucks. Sucks donkey. Sucks rhino. Sucks blue whale, the largest animal known to have lived on the face of the earth. I mean, this is the only unit that is LESS powerful than the one it replaces (5 strength for Jags, 6 for Swordsmen). It's a little cheaper than Swordsmen and doesn't require Iron, but when I've been up against these things, they remind me of the suicide squad in Life of Brian ("Suicide Squad... attack! Suicide Squad... commit... suicide! ARRGGHH..."). And a jungle defense bonus? Sheesh. Yeah, you stay fortified in your jungle, Mr. Jaguar, while I go right around you...

So how do you leverage these guys? Or do you just not bother with them, in which case, how do you compensate for not having Swordsmen?

I look forward to your responses, then heading out to conquer the world for the glory of the Aztec Empire. Montezuma's Revenge, indeed.

city raider crossbows are essentially swordmen. maybe too little too late though..

edit: oops-i meant combat 1, not CR (which i don't think crossbowas can have). actually, since unpromoted swords essentially get a free combat 1 when attacking a city, combat 1 crossbows are like a 1/2 sword 1/2 axe buttkicker, except that they usually come too late to function as one

Regarding the Jaguars...

The way I see them as an advantage is coupled with the fact that Montezuma begins with Mysticism. You can shoot for founding an early religion in your capital, holding off on bronze working, and not really have to worry about screwing yourself out of settling the metal.

If you land some metal anyway, great. Build Axemen. If you don't, well it's time to build a Jaguar horde and go take it from your neighbor. After you secure metal, just produce axemen. Swords are certainly better, but axes will still do the job. Jaguars are only a fallback for when you don't score the metal near your capital, and they are good enough to remedy that situation by taking it from your closest neighbor.

You can go the early religion route if you like, but for Monty I like the early war route. See if you have bronze in a good spot early on, if you do then crank out axemen and take someome down. If you lack bronze, you can check for iron, if you don't have iron then it's time to use Jaguars to get some metal (that's really the only time they're good). I rarely bother with swordsmen in my games, they're kind of overkill for archers.

Naterator, city raider crossbows are not possible, archery units can't get city raider.

From what I've heard, Swordsmen may be a little overrated anyway, which really speaks volumes for the Jaguar's sucktacularity, but I agree, you can get by with Axemen, assuming that you get Iron or Copper.

The Idea of an early religion will help you economically if you get your shrine quickly. If you make friends with one neighbour, then you can spread the religion for huge cash benefits. I'll probably try this one (albeit on Noble, as I wasn't that great with Civ III, and am still learning about all the goodness of Civ IV...) until I see the next pre-game thread...

I like the idea of using the religious techs to get the warlike civics, and using shrines to fund the war effort and tech race. Since the religious route to Vassalage and Theocracy makes a lot of sense to me, I'll probably end up using that. I agree that axemen will have to replace swordsmen (Jaguars). Axemen with a free combat 1 promotion will be just fine.

Some general things I was thinking of:
1) Aggressive civs like each other more than other civs, meaning it will be easier to get good relations with the other warmongerers. Since a fair number of aggressive civs have Hereditary Rule as their favorite civic, adopting HR will make them like you even more, and allow your cities to benefit from the happiness boost.
2) When I found a religion, one thing I'll often do is deliberately not switch immediately but adopt someone else's religion for a while. This keeps good relations (and open borders) while I spam my missionaries. Once other civs start converting on their own, then I'll adopt my own religion and get the LOS intel.
3) The AI Monty sacrifices science for military, making him an annoyance early on, but usually a clown at the end. Depending on your map type and size, you may be able to run a total war game, using the loot to fuel your war machine. On a larger map that won't be possible and you'll have to pay close attention to the tech race. It will be easy to get caught up in the stereotypical Monty persona and forget that a strong military is only part of the equation. Especially since Monty isn't financial, you'll want to start cottages fairly early.
4) Since the AIs seem to respect strength, I'll try to offset the limitations in the commerce department by shamelessly extorting tech from weaker, non-aggressive civs while making friends with the other warmongerers so I'll have someone to trade with.
5) High on my list of targets will be nearby capitals, holy cities and cities with wonders. I've never played Monty before, but I get a feeling he's not exactly set up as an economic powerhouse. The military will have to take what the civ can't make.

Edit: I wonder what Montezuma would have to say about all this?

Starting with the religious branch of the tech tree not only lets you get the warlike civics earlier but it also makes it more likely you'll have a shot at Stonehenge, allowing you to basically not worry about culture for the early game. Your new cities' borders will automatically expand early, allowing quick access to the resources in the outside ring of the fat cross.

It also increases the likelihood of successfully pulling off a CoL or CS slingshot (depending on your difficulty level). Either of those are extremely helpful. The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced an early religion rush is right for Monty.

Edit: I went looking for some posts related to our Aztec leader's traits, and came up with a few good ones to review and think over for the game. There is understandably some overlap as the posts are from different threads trying to cover the same topics, but each one of these links has something I wanted to remember. In no particular order, here they are: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8.

One thing that sounds pretty useful for Monty are certainly the Pyramids. You could run police state for military production, or representation for happiness and beakers.

Another thing is getting a religion spread throughout the empire, to fully make use of religious civics, particularly organized religion early on, later theocracy. This would mean to found a religion, if possible.
With the starting techs being Myst and Hunting, plus the need for monotheism later to get OrgRel, I'd suggest starting out with polytheism. Get hinduism if you're lucky, if not continue to monotheism.

Finally, we need axemen soon. And worker techs. If the start is reasonably food rich, probably skip farming until later, go for mining and bronze working. Get a city up near copper, if there is none available at all (not likely), hope for iron, or fall back on jags.

At this point, I'd consider chopping Stonehenge; this depends on if there's a need for border expansions in the second town. Forget about pyramids, they're too expensive and need masonry.


So, what I'd do, optimally:
Start on polytheism. Then mining, BW. Monotheism later, depends on need for worker techs.
Build scout, barracks -> worker (finish in time for mining if useful), finish barracks, settler (for copper).
Make a ton of axemen in both cities. Go conquer Pyramids and some more cities to build stuff with. Research worker techs. Start thinking about the midgame.

From what I've heard, Swordsmen may be a little overrated anyway, which really speaks volumes for the Jaguar's sucktacularity

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wow, i've got a new favorite word! i'm with gnarf, swords aren't that great to begin with since they're eaten by axemen. when i play monty, it's because i love his traits and starting techs, i mean, a scout to start and a great shot at an early religion make it easy to get a good start.

I played a couple of starts with Monty on Prince, and his starting techs were really painful. With no worker techs (unless you start with something huntable), founding one of the first two religions seems to really slow you down - you can't build a worker right off the bat because there's literally nothing for him to do unless your scout is lucky...

However, I do agree the key to Monty will be the synergy between the aggressive trait and Theocracy (or Vassalage, maybe?) for early experienced units using the religious tract. I'm just not sure how to do it, but I think it might be interesting to try to found Judaism rather than Hinduism or Buddhism. In this case, you can research the necessary worker techs first and then beeline to Monotheism, and still be lined up for an early Jewish Theocracy. With a good start, you could still probably get Construction in before "they" get longbowmen, and you'd be set...

As for the Jaguars, I don't see any point to them. They cost the same as Axemen and are inferior (A UU Axeman with no need for bronze would be a different story, I think... but it's very situational to have no access to either iron or bronze.)

It might be interesting if someone posted a 4000 BC save game we could all try out - I think that several folks working off of the same game might highlight the strengths (and weaknesses, Mocty!) of the leaders more than just brainstorming.

Oh, and once again, thanks for this great idea!

I just played a Monty game on Emperor, starting more or less the way I outlined before. The starting city had a gold plains hill, deer and a couple of floodplains in the fat cross.
First, I went for mining, which is necessary for masonry, which in turn is necessary for monotheism, so not wasted for the religion route. Built a worker, and mined the gold hill.
Second tech was polytheism, which actually gave me Hinduism. Then bronze working, wheel and more worker techs, masonry, and finally monotheism, which founded Judaism in my second city.
I held off monotheism for quite a while, since other than barracks, there haven't been any buildings to build. I made a ton of axemen and a third city, but stayed in paganism until quite some time later.
Expanded some more, took over a neighbor with axers, another with macers and catapults, and took a bite out of a third civ to get to domination. This was 1541AD, and could easily have been 300 years or more earlier, but I got quite sloppy once I beat the first neighbor (in the BCs).
One interesting thing was that I actually shut down research completely after civil service, machinery (macers) and theology (theocracy). The money was useful to upgrade axers at over 180g a piece!


Edit: here's the start. Emperor, small pangaea, 4 opponents. Epic speed.

I am in the end game of a monty game on marathon prince.

My capital started in a high production area. I sent my scout out and popped mining (what luck). I built 2 more scouts and let them start exploring. Then, my capital started working on barracks.

My Science was a beeline to IW. I didn't care if I had metal or not since I can make jags. If you can get them quick, they are devistating. No need to hook up iron, no need to research the wheel, no need for worker techs. Just get IW and go.

After my barracks was complete, I built a worker then stonehenge. The workers mined a few hills in the area and chopped a few forests to hurry stonehenge. The oblisk bonus will come in hand with all the conquering I am about to do.

Since Monty is agressive, my jags will start with combat 1. I can give them cover or CR1.

As soon as IW completed, I began to crank out jags. My nearest rival was Tokugawa. He had built 3 cities. I claimed Osaka, Tokyo, and Kyoto as my own and Tokugawa was dispatched.

After IW was completed, I researched the wheel. (this went quickly because everyone else already had it). Tokugawa had built many improvements so I didn't have to. I was able to hook up some iron, so I could use axes to help.

In the same way, I conquered half of greece and egypt before slowing my conquering down and building up my economy.


The AI doesn't put a big emphesis (usually) on BW. So the jags can get to the AI before axes appear. This is the jag's strength. They are cheap and quick. You can get to the nearest cities before copper is hooked up, and keep it from behing hooked up. Jags will whip archers.


After my first round of war, I had 8 cities (including 4 former capitals) but my science percentage was really low. Spent about 50 turns building the infrastructure, and by the time I was ready to go to war again, I was first in every category. One thing that helped here was founding confucianism, and building the shrine and spreading it to my cities.


My stragegy with montazuma is always early war.

The Keeper said:

The AI doesn't put a big emphesis (usually) on BW. So the jags can get to the AI before axes appear. This is the jag's strength. They are cheap and quick. You can get to the nearest cities before copper is hooked up, and keep it from behing hooked up. Jags will whip archers. After my first round of war, I had 8 cities (including 4 former capitals)

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Impressive. I've always thought of IW being so far off in terms of turns to research that it wouldn't be worth it to beeline for Jags. I guess it can be profitable. If I didn't already have copper hooked up in my current Monty game, I would give that a shot. Something to remember, though.

For my Monty game I decided to use the South America scenario. Not exactly geographically correct for historical purposes, but as close I was going to come with the maps I have available. Since I'm still learning the effects of the patch, I decided to drop down to Prince for this game (only one wrench in the works at a time) so I could concentrate on maximizing strategies for Monty.

I lucked into a beautiful start position, surrounded by a huge forest and with stone in my fat cross. Since there were that many trees around I knew I would have to clear them to make spaces for cottages, and chopping them would help get workers and settlers out early. I beelined for BW (I know, old strategy, but anything else would have been ridiculous considering my starting location). When I got BW I saw that copper was two tiles away from my second city and would be in the fat cross once the borders expanded.

The quickest way to get those borders to expand would be to found a religion before settling a third city, practically guaranteeing that city would become the holy city. My neighbor Gandhi still hadn't founded a religion by the time I got BW, so I figured he must have stopped off for a worker tech. In that case, he's probably going for Hinduism, thinking someone would snag Buddhism before he could. I went for Buddhism and got it a few turns after he founded Hinduism.

I then got Masonry to get Stonehenge and then went all-out religion. While I was discovering religions and chopping out settlers, Gandhi was spamming Hindu missionaries. Most of the world converted, and I did as well for the good relations with everyone. I ended up snagging five religions while Gandhi got two (he also founded Judaism). Buddhism was spreading on its own and three civs converted, so I switched to Buddhism and spammed missionaries. Everyone eventually converted except Gandhi.

Hmm... I have seven cities, Gandhi has six. I have macemen, he doesn't. Let's build some catapults. I now have thirteen cities, including all holy cities. I've gotten four Great Prophets and the shrine income is helping offset the upkeep costs of my expanded empire. I'm continuing to spam missionaries to outpace the random spread of religion and to increase the shrine income. I have double the number of cities of any other civ and at this point can basically choose my victory condition.

The religion route really paid off (literally, in gold). Being able to hit Theocracy so early helped immensely. Combined with the free combat 1 promotion it made a successful war possible much earlier than otherwise. Usually with thirteen cities this early my economy would tank. As it is, I'm running a 70% science rate without losing money. I still have lots and lots of forests around my cities and foresee some strong production cities in the future.

As odd as it sounds, the combination of Spiritual and Aggressive is a great combo. I now see why Monty is so strong early on. If the AI Monty didn't sacrifice science as much as he does, he would be a powerhouse for the entire game. I'm really getting spoiled by the Spiritual trait in this game. The flexibility it allows is amazing. Throw in cheap barracks and a free combat 1 promotion (basically making each unit 10% stronger and immediately opening other promotions straight out of the barracks) and this game has been an eye-opener.

I've begun a new thread to discuss strategy for the on-going Montezuma game I've started: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=3973882#post3973882

Please head over there and tell me how you think I'm doing and what I should do next!

After a few times where I had little luck getting resources fast enough, I think I'm doing okay this time around. I just got Macemen, and have places Alexander firmly in last place (screwed him over early by blocking his Copper), and am deciding between Mali or Germany for my next war.

I have Confucianism (Founded and have the shrine), with the faith spread though Malinese turf, and Bismark is being a jerk, so I think he's next when I am ready to fight. I'm also thinking about "harvesting" the last two Greek cities at leisure. I really need to see my cottages develop first though...