Civilizations

ltccone

ltccone

Prince
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IMO, calling some BNW Civ 5 Civilizations 'civilizations' is stretching it a bit.

The list would include Brazil, Indonesia, Polynesia, and the Huns. I also think the Shoshone was a strange representative of the Plains Indians.

What does everyone else think?
 
I think that gameplay is more important than a strict definition of "civilization" that requires that the people in question be city-builders.
 
I think it's fair to generalize sometimes for the sake of convenience. However, the area between what is a culture and what is a civilization is vague at best.

Polynesia is probably a prime example where they more or less threw all pacific islanders in the same pot despite the fact that many have long standing and separate traditions.

Fun > Realism
 
Here's your definition:

Civilization:

A group of people who share a demonym and would be fun to play as in the game series Sid Meier's Civilization.

Let's not get into a convoluted and vaguely bigoted argument comparing the Roman Empire to Native American nomads or some other such group. The term is all inclusive.
 
Eagle Pursuit said:
Here's your definition:

Civilization:

A group of people who share a demonym and would be fun to play as in the game series Sid Meier's Civilization.

Let's not get into a convoluted and vaguely bigoted argument comparing the Roman Empire to Native American nomads or some other such group. The term is all inclusive.
Click to expand...

I can understand that. If that is the case, just about every group of people would qualify. :)

civ·i·li·za·tion [siv-uh-luh-zey-shuhn] Show IPA
noun
1.
an advanced state of human society, in which a high level of culture, science, industry, and government has been reached.
2.
those people or nations that have reached such a state.
3.
any type of culture, society, etc., of a specific place, time, or group: Greek civilization.
4.
the act or process of civilizing or being civilized: Rome's civilization of barbaric tribes was admirable.
5.
cultural refinement; refinement of thought and cultural appreciation: The letters of Madame de Sévigné reveal her wit and civilization.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/civilization
 
Civ Fanatics is a civilization judging by the high level of culture exhibited by the participants.
 
NyQuil said:
Civ Fanatics is a civilization judging by the high level of culture exhibited by the participants.
Click to expand...

Sounds good to me!
 
ltccone said:
I can understand that. If that is the case, just about every group of people would qualify. :)

civ·i·li·za·tion [siv-uh-luh-zey-shuhn] Show IPA
noun
1.
an advanced state of human society, in which a high level of culture, science, industry, and government has been reached.
2.
those people or nations that have reached such a state.
3.
any type of culture, society, etc., of a specific place, time, or group: Greek civilization.
4.
the act or process of civilizing or being civilized: Rome's civilization of barbaric tribes was admirable.
5.
cultural refinement; refinement of thought and cultural appreciation: The letters of Madame de Sévigné reveal her wit and civilization.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/civilization
Click to expand...

I like the Wiktionary definition more, which is more appropriate of Civ: An organized culture encompassing many communities, often on the scale of a nation or a people; a stage or system of social, political or technical development.

Still doesn't work for every civ currently in the game, but I don't think that's going to happen for any definition out there.
 
Tinker said:
I like the Wiktionary definition more, which is more appropriate of Civ: An organized culture encompassing many communities, often on the scale of a nation or a people; a stage or system of social, political or technical development.

Still doesn't work for every civ currently in the game, but I don't think that's going to happen for any definition out there.
Click to expand...

Like the Huns. Hard to find anything 'civilizing' about them. :)
 
Huns, celts, and vikings are the only three sides who I wouldn't call a civ. all the rest are fine by me in the sense that they're a civ.
 
Princeofnigeria said:
Huns, celts, and vikings are the only three sides who I wouldn't call a civ. all the rest are fine by me in the sense that they're a civ.
Click to expand...

Denmark is fine as represented, and meets pretty much any criterion you'd apply to a civ, however strict your definition. It's also bizarre that the OP listed Indonesia, which was as much an urbanised, developed society prior to the colonial period as India, just (like India) not under that name.

Polynesia, the Huns, the Celts, the Zulu and the Shoshone are poor fits. If you're applying a classical definition of a civilization as a sedentary society with centralised government, the Iroquois are a borderline case.

I wouldn't say any of the others are disqualified on the grounds of "not being civilizations", but many more can be disputed on the grounds of "importance" given the game's traditional focus on powers of significance to global or regional history, and/or those that were long-lived - this list includes Brazil (now regionally important, but not a defining feature in regional history so much), the Iroquois, Venice, Sweden and the Aztecs, and probably others.
 
I dont know if Celts necessarily should be in the game, but I dont think its wrong to talk about "Celtic civilization". Im glad that they got rid of Vikings, because it really didnt make much sense. Danes and Swedes are much better. Huns were pretty much just different ethnic groups raiding and plundering through Europe. Originally they probably were some kind of proto Mongols, but we dont know for sure. They were pretty important in their time though so they are not totally horrible choice. America and Brazil are questionable, because they are so young. In many ways they are just part of English and Portuguese civilizations. I also dont know if Venice can be called a civilization.

@PhilBowles. Venice, Sweden and the Aztecs were really important in their time. Tenochtitlan might have been the biggest city in the world at its prime.
 
ltccone said:
IMO, calling some BNW Civ 5 Civilizations 'civilizations' is stretching it a bit.

The list would include Brazil, Indonesia, Polynesia, and the Huns. I also think the Shoshone was a strange representative of the Plains Indians.

What does everyone else think?
Click to expand...

If you think Indonesia was not a civilization (as represented through Gajah Mada and Majapahit) then you don't know very much about Asian history
 
seancolorado said:
If you think Indonesia was not a civilization (as represented through Gajah Mada and Majapahit) then you don't know very much about Asian history
Click to expand...

I know more than you think I do. "Indonesia" is not a civilization, it is a geographic area.

The civ should have been called the Majapahit Empire. They didn't call Songhai Southwest Central Africa, did they?
 
PhilBowles said:
Denmark is fine as represented, and meets pretty much any criterion you'd apply to a civ, however strict your definition. It's also bizarre that the OP listed Indonesia, which was as much an urbanised, developed society prior to the colonial period as India, just (like India) not under that name.

Polynesia, the Huns, the Celts, the Zulu and the Shoshone are poor fits. If you're applying a classical definition of a civilization as a sedentary society with centralised government, the Iroquois are a borderline case.

I wouldn't say any of the others are disqualified on the grounds of "not being civilizations", but many more can be disputed on the grounds of "importance" given the game's traditional focus on powers of significance to global or regional history, and/or those that were long-lived - this list includes Brazil (now regionally important, but not a defining feature in regional history so much), the Iroquois, Venice, Sweden and the Aztecs, and probably others.
Click to expand...

My beef with Indonesia is that it is CALLED Indonesia. It should have been called the Majapahit Empire. And if anyone says no one has heard of it, how many people have heard of Songhai?
 
ltccone said:
My beef with Indonesia is that it is CALLED Indonesia. It should have been called the Majapahit Empire. And if anyone says no one has heard of it, how many people have heard of Songhai?
Click to expand...

Calling it the Majapahit Empire would only allow them to represent the Majapahit Empire. Calling it Indonesia allows them to represent all of the peoples in the region from many time periods. Thus, Indonesia is a better choice.

Besides, Indonesia is most definitely a civilization. The current Republic of Indonesia has the world's fourth largest population and sixteenth largest economy (by nominal GDP). That's not bad!
 
Kwami said:
Calling it the Majapahit Empire would only allow them to represent the Majapahit Empire. Calling it Indonesia allows them to represent all of the peoples in the region from many time periods. Thus, Indonesia is a better choice.

Besides, Indonesia is most definitely a civilization. The current Republic of Indonesia has the world's fourth largest population and sixteenth largest economy (by nominal GDP). That's not bad!
Click to expand...

Their leader is from the Majapahit Empire, so why wouldn't you call it that?
 
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