The Falkland Islands

Akka · Jun 18, 2012

imperialman said:
Don't forget they also claim it because migratory birds fly there from Argentina.

Seriously ? :dubious:

Flying Pig said:
Because otherwise we end up with bizarre decisions that nobody really wants - at the risk of a Godwin's Law, that's how most tyrannies (and BNP MEPs) come about

I don't really see how only taking into account the opinions of people who do vote (including "blank" votes of course) would lead to anything you talk about.
In fact, it's already what happens everywhere - governments are elected, by definition, only by people who vote.

And about the "self-determination", it's something I'm usually very touchy about. It's very blurry to begin with (see my question about "how do you determine the relevant size ?"), is a bit too suspect to population migration (if foreigners migrate en masse to a zone into a country, and then become the majority, does that give them the right to secede ? Because I certainly don't think so) and more often than not cause a disintegration of the zone and increase strife rather than reduce it (see the Balkans).

ParkCungHee · Jun 19, 2012

Flying Pig said:
If they did want to join Argentina, it would make sense; they don't have another country in the way and so could be absorbed without much trouble. Even if they wanted to become independent, that wouldn't be a major drama, since they're a set of islands. If they wanted to join Austria, however, that might be more problematic.

Why is Austria more unreasonable then the U.K.?

kramerfan86 said:
To me self detirmination should always apply when talking about territories that have not fully joined in with a country or which no country has de facto control over. So the Falklands, Puerto Rico, Gibraltar, etc. should get to self determine. Group of random people though who move to an abandoned part of Colorado and proclaim nationhood do not as the US clearly has de facto control over it and it is not a territory which has not fully joined into the nation.

While this is a bit more consistent, it leads to loads of other problems. While it means the Conch Republic is a legitimate secession, it means that for example, Austria, Poland, Czechoslovakia and most of the Netherlands do not have a legitimate claim to self-determination in the face of German claims (and vice versa).

Flying Pig · Jun 19, 2012

Why is Austria more unreasonable then the U.K.?

Short answer - Austia's landlocked. The Falklands also have no real connection with Austria that would allow them to function as an Austrian Overseas Territory

So if the Austrians got Fiume back, or maybe some sort of basing rights in Slovenia, that would make it reasonable?

Well, more reasonable certainly. If they wanted to be Austrian, and the Austrians wanted them, there would theoretically be no good reason not to allow them to join Austria... except that's a pretty unlikely scenario, all told.

ParkCungHee · Jun 19, 2012

So if the Austrians got Fiume back, or maybe some sort of basing rights in Slovenia, that would make it reasonable?

SeekTruthFromFacts · Jun 30, 2012

Benefactor said:
Fair enough.

Just sounds racist because, you know, Chinese people aren't exactly yellow skinned are they...

Westerners call Chinese people yellow, because that's what Chinese people call themselves

Yellow River is the Mother River
They are children of the Yellow Emperor

SeekTruthFromFacts · Jun 30, 2012

say1988 said:
The UK should just give a big middle finger to Argentina and fully incorporate the Falklands into the UK. They could throw in Gibralter as well while they are at it.

One thing to say about the Falklands, at least Argentina has a better, and less hypocritical, case then whenever the Spanish get pissy over Gibralter (not that that is saying much).

There are problems with this:
1. Falklands: Which bit of the UK? I don't think they want to be run by Sinn Fein. So they'd have to be a fourth devolved administration, which is pretty much what they've got now.
2. Gibraltar: As with the Falklands, plus the need to observe the restrictions of the Treaty of Utrecht (basically border control could get complicated) and the danger of a flood of migrants heading from Morocco.

Akka said:
And about the "self-determination", it's something I'm usually very touchy about. It's very blurry to begin with (see my question about "how do you determine the relevant size ?"), is a bit too suspect to population migration (if foreigners migrate en masse to a zone into a country, and then become the majority, does that give them the right to secede ? Because I certainly don't think so) and more often than not cause a disintegration of the zone and increase strife rather than reduce it (see the Balkans).

I think the geographical position of the Falklands makes the relevant size issue fairly simple.

The population migration issue is best solved (IMOH) by making birthplace+residence critical in self-determination debates. Borders can change, but slowly.

aelf · Jun 30, 2012

SeekTruthFromFacts said:
Westerners call Chinese people yellow, because that's what Chinese people call themselves

Yellow River is the Mother River
They are children of the Yellow Emperor

Rubbish.

Borachio · Jun 30, 2012

Yeah. Rubbish is what I thought too.

How wrong was I?

Leoreth · Jun 30, 2012

Did you read the article you linked?

Said wikipedia article said:
In the late Warring States period, the Yellow Emperor was integrated into the cosmological scheme of the Five Phases, in which the color yellow represents earth, dragons, and the center.[13] The correlation of the colors in association with different dynasties was mentioned in the Lüshi Chunqiu (late 3rd century BC), where the Yellow Emperor's reign was seen to be governed by earth.[21]

In more general terms, if one particular person is referred to as "yellow" it's not a very good argument that it's a general term for its people, because then the qualifier would be meaningless, wouldn't it?

So that's a better argument against this idea.

Borachio · Jun 30, 2012

I confess it, I only saw the Yellow headline. You rumbled me! That'll learn me.

Neomega · Jun 30, 2012

Winner said:
Argentinian Invasion Plan, take II:

1) Discover oil fields near the islands
2) Britain hires American companies to drill there
3) American companies import workers from Latin America
4) Wait till the number of Spanish-speakers on the islands grows larger than the number of British loyalists
5) Claim rights for "self-determination"
6) Watch the UK (if it still exists) government crap its underpants
7) Repeat in the American southwest.

A likely scenario. Everyone is talking about the inhabitant of the islands, but if there are no immigration restrictions, the Islands would surely become Argentinian soon enough.

imperialman · Jul 1, 2012

Neomega said:
A likely scenario. Everyone is talking about the inhabitant of the islands, but if there are no immigration restrictions, the Islands would surely become Argentinian soon enough.

Don't remember what exactly but I'm pretty sure they're quite heavy for Argentina.

SeekTruthFromFacts · Jul 1, 2012

aelf said:
Rubbish.

Aelf, thank you for your well-argued and sophisticated point

Since it's provoked a bit of a reaction, I've wasted half an hour trying to remember where I read or heard this. I've read enough books and articles about China that I can't be certain, but I seem to have got this from an article by Frank Dikoetter that I read a few years ago: Racial identities in China: context and meaning.

If you'll read it, you'll see that I went far beyond what Dikoetter states, for which I apologize. However, I think the basic point stands: racists used yellow to describe Chinese people because it was already a significant and positive concept in Chinese culture. The opening paragraph is what stuck in my mind, although of course it's not Dikoetter's opinion.

BTW Leoreth's logic is perfectly sensible in arguing that a Yellow Emperor wouldn't be distinctive, but it misses the point. When Jewish people talk about the "God of Israel", is that because they want to distinguish him from their other gods?! No, they are Israel because they come from Israel. Likewise the Yellow Emperor - the title seems to be hierarchical, not one of a series of equals.

aelf · Jul 1, 2012

SeekTruthFromFacts said:
Aelf, thank you for your well-argued and sophisticated point

What do you expect? There's nothing to refute - it's utter rubbish.

SeekTruthFromFacts said:
If you'll read it, you'll see that I went far beyond what Dikoetter states, for which I apologize. However, I think the basic point stands: racists used yellow to describe Chinese people because it was already a significant and positive concept in Chinese culture. The opening paragraph is what stuck in my mind, although of course it's not Dikoetter's opinion.

I may not be Brazilian, but I can tell you that racists use yellow to describe Chinese people because it's supposedly the colour of their skin.

Traitorfish · Jul 1, 2012

I never really did understand that one. I kind of get the impression that they'd already used up all the realistic colours, and they just went with "yellow" because "purple" would clearly be taking the piss.

say1988 · Jul 1, 2012

I suspect the association of yellow with cowardice was also prevalent among a lot of people when using the term as Asians were often viewed as cowards in the West.
Though I can't say which way the effect went (did the use of "yellow" generate cowardly stereotypes or cowardly stereotypes promote the use of "yellow or did one build into the other).

SeekTruthFromFacts · Jul 2, 2012

say1988 said:
I suspect the association of yellow with cowardice was also prevalent among a lot of people when using the term as Asians were often viewed as cowards in the West.
Though I can't say which way the effect went (did the use of "yellow" generate cowardly stereotypes or cowardly stereotypes promote the use of "yellow or did one build into the other).

The OED will be able to answer this quickly. I've too much work today to go into a library and check.

imperialman · Jul 3, 2012

Can we keep this about the Falklands please?

imperialman · Sep 11, 2012

http://en.mercopress.com/2012/09/11...g-to-provide-support-services-to-oil-industry

Very good news for the islands!

Cutlass · Sep 11, 2012

If they find oil, that only stirs up the old controversies. Argentina would want them even more.

The Falkland Islands

Moody old mage.

Deity

Utrinque Paratus

Deity

King

King

Ashen One

Way past lunacy

Blue Period

Way past lunacy

Deity

Admiral

King

Ashen One

The Tighnahulish Kid

Deity

King

Admiral

Admiral

The Man Who Wasn't There.

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