Shaka does something odd

So, a while ago, in my first successful BNW Match, I was neighbouring Shaka
But he didn't make any moves of aggression towards me. In fact, he even asked me if i wanted to DoW Ethiopia, our 3rd neighbor in the area. I declined, but then about 5 turns later, Ethiopia settles in my face, and I quite fancied their cap, so I wanted for Shaka to ask me again, which he did. So I declared war on Ethiopia with the Zulus, and after literally no resistance (didn't even see 1 defending unit, suppose Shaka might have had something to do with that, but I never saw a single one of his troops) I razed the second city, and captured their cap.

But then this is where it gets weird; The Zulus HATED me for joining THEIR war and winning? He even denounced me, and followed up with a war, where I encountered the wraith of the Impi for the first time(we where both in the medieval era) So Shaka captured the city, and we made a balanced peace deal. But then it gets EVEN WEIRDER. Shaka then became VERY friendly with me, almost like thee war never happened?

But then a few eras later he became hostile again, but my army was more advanced by now (musket men) and every other civ was jumping on the
Shaka-hate-bandwagon. So China DoW'ed them, and the Inca asked me to do it as well. As I wanted revenge, I joined in, and we all attacked (China pulled out quickly) So i defeated most of the mighty Zulu army, the Impi are still a pain even with gattling guns and muskets, but riflemen made short work of them, and the Inca distracted the last of the Zulu army, so I sold some cities I captured to them.

But. just like the first time, everyone HATED me for DoW'ing the Zulus? Although, ideologies might have been at work now, since no-one else picked freedom. So it was a bit of a mad game

Also, Venice asked me to stop settling near them when I built a city to nab Gibraltar

Although, ideologies might have been at work now

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^this!

The AI seems to have an apparent "Friendly" that's actually disingenuous, usually when they're preparing a backstab. I've seen Elizabeth go from Hostile to Friendly to DoW in like fifteen turns.

Check this thread for insight into how AI calculates warmongering.

So now its looking at how many cities you take vs liberate.

Not sure how it handles cities you later sell, but I don't think it takes this into account as I sold cities won via peace deals and still showed as warmonger.

The zulu wanted to DoW Ethiopia because they wanted Ethiopia's land. When you became owner of the land, they hated you instead, because you owned that land, and you are not the zulu!

AIs also get mad at people for taking cities through war. If you care about diplomatic relations with the AI, try to take cities through peace deals (I think this doesn't provide a capture modifier). Who declares war doesn't really matter.

This system doesn't sound intuitive at first, but when I actually think about it, this is very similar to how I feel about other civs in the game. If the AI grows really large through war and I am right next to them, I get concerned and focus my efforts to stop them. A while ago the Netherlands declared war on Babylon, but Babylon came close to capturing the Netherlands capital. I declared war on Babylon to protect the Netherlands, because even though William declared war, Babylon was infinitely more threatening if they had taken Amsterdam.

The cool thing about Shaka is that he is almost never deceptive. His "honest" and "loyal" flavors are among the highest in the game, especially for a warmonger. Most of the time he wants to eat you, but you will at least know that before it happens, or at least as it's happening.

This is odd considering the AI should not have any warmonger hate for someone in a joint war with them. What modifiers did you have with them?

Yzman said:

This is odd considering the AI should not have any warmonger hate for someone in a joint war with them. What modifiers did you have with them?

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That's not really true in my experience. They might not show it, but the AI does seem to "remember"

Civilization ais don't like it when you are having a good game so they eventually get mad at you and start declaring war so that they can stop you from rising or staying on top. When the ai has a comfortable lead, it is less likely to warmonger with you. Ais that have many trade deals are less likely to warmonger and don't mind you watching their later victory as they take the lead.

I see what you guys mean about the Zulus hating me for taking that land, that was one of my thoughts too, but if they wanted it so badly, maybe they should have ACTUALLY ATTACKED Ethiopia? Alas, i cannot remember what modifiers they had with me before the DoW.

Another odd AI event in a another game was with China. They where guarded against me, despite ALL the modifiers I had with them where: We have no contested borders! We have an embassy in their capital! We have a trade route with them! And this was only about 15 turns after meeting them, and Wu wouldn't offer me any fair trade deals, like 1:1 on luxes. Oddly, later she then became my best friend, despite conflicting ideologies. Maybe she was just being paranoid when I first met her?

Well, I've got backstabbed by Shaka twice during one game, when Maria hated me for settling too close and spreading judaism (played as Carthage, phoenician origin, israel is not so far.. Besides the gold focus goes nicely with the stereotype, so I always found judaism as Carthage) and they both declared on me simultaneously... So its possible she bribed Shaka... Twice. xD

I don't know all the leader 'flavors' and what not, but some leaders just seem down right neurotic. What someone said about Wu- she is without a doubt one of the worst for this. Being guarded for no reason, then loving you, then backstabbing. Some leaders just don't seem to want to be friends with anyone unless its to manipulate the diplomatic scene (Elizabeth). Some leaders I let out a sigh of relief when I meet them as I know that even if we wont be friends, I will know where we stand (Hiawatha stands out).

Shaka has seemed a bit odd in my experience as well, constantly demanding tribute from my CS allies, but he doesn't seem to care when I use the "you will pay for this" option. I have had wars with him, and he goes back to friendly when its over. As someone else noted, I haven't had any "relations" problems with him (wars excluded ) until ideologies kick in.

If you have a city, Shaka is likely to hate you randomly at almost anytime.

Johnpecan said:

If you have a city, Shaka is likely to hate you randomly at almost anytime.

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This!

He will covet your land from 15 tiles and a CS screen away.

Johnpecan said:

If you have a city, Shaka is likely to hate you randomly at almost anytime.

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That is understating it - if you have a unit on the map, Shaka is likely to randomly hate you at almost anytime.

MarshalN said:

That's not really true in my experience. They might not show it, but the AI does seem to "remember"

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I believe it has been shown in the code that an AI in the same war as you will not have hate towards you and I have had this experience as well. I had a game where I kept getting Harold to declare war with me, as I took out every other civ on the map. He never even had a red mark against me, unlike everyone else who went from friendly to hostile rather quickly.