Vokarya's Workshop: Buildings

Afforess said:

Just thinking outside the box here, with the civics in RAND, there is not a set of one "good" late-game civics like there is in BTS. It does not make sense to lock yourself into a set of civics. However, there are certainly civics on a spectrum of "bad". It might be worth looking into rewriting the UN a bit to "ban" certain civics instead of lock good civics.

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Maybe we could have a mixed version?
IMO it would both make sense to ban MAD or to force Pacifism.
I also don't think that every civic category needs to have the same amount of civics to be voted for/against. Like, it sure makes sense to enforce other civs open borders for the connectedness bonus, but why would I want others to use the same "good" civics that I use?

If you can only ban civics, you can still kinda force civics by banning all the other civics in the category, it would just be a lot more difficult, which is probably a good thing

Sogroon said:

...but why would I want others to use the same "good" civics that I use?

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To cripple another civilization that's relying on a Civic that you're not using

In base BTS, the United Nations' Civic Votes were the bane of anyone relying on State Property to maintain an empire - someone building the UN was motive enough for a War Declaration, since if Free Market passed (And repeated vetoing it was creating too much unhappiness for you to deal with) then your setup would be screwed.

That was reason enough to vote for civics at times - just to screw someone else over
I've even ruined an AI-AI relation ship that way once. They both had shared civic bonuses until a resolution passed and forced 'em out of it, and they both dropped from Friendly to Pleased - one of them being the type to declare at Pleased. I promptly bribed them to war and they hated each other the rest of the game. Only ever happened once though, but it was awesome seeing that happen.

Not often you can base any kind of strategy off that though, but if someone else is massively benefiting from a Non-UN civic, why not force them out of it?

I was once playing RoM (I believe) as Kublai, and I forced Wilhelmina into capitulation early in the game. In the endgame, she had gone Fascist and I kept hammering the Democracy resolution (that she kept defying) so often that she eventually broke the capitulation and declared war on me. (I promptly steamrolled her.)

Vokarya said:

I was once playing RoM (I believe) as Kublai, and I forced Wilhelmina into capitulation early in the game. In the endgame, she had gone Fascist and I kept hammering the Democracy resolution (that she kept defying) so often that she eventually broke the capitulation and declared war on me. (I promptly steamrolled her.)

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I had an AI cancel deals with me and eventually declare war on me at one point because I kept trying to get folks to war with another AI via the AP. I'm assuming that's what ticked him off since they were both good friends and he kept defying the resolution - which would otherwise have passed.

(Might be pretty apparent, but I love finding ways to screw with the AI. The new changes that get other leaders suspicious of you for bribing people into wars won't hold me back )

I've come around to the idea of linking Storyteller Circle to the Theatre line of buildings. However, we will need some adjustments, as the +1 from Storyteller Circle needs to continue down the Theatre line without being conditional like Theatre's bonuses are and without adding too much extra happiness. So here is what I would like to do:

• Storyteller Circle goes obsolete with Guilds. This gives you enough time to upgrade your Storyteller Circles to Theatres.
• Theatre loses +1 from Dye and gets +1 . The reason for the Dye bonus is that every resource in BTS got at least one building that gave it + or + and the Theatre was the building for Dye. AND gives a bonus from Dye to Tailor and Textile Mill, so I don't think Dye needs to tie into Theatre as well.
• Movie Theatre gets +1 . It doesn't have any standard happiness (only a Celebrity, culture-slider, conditional happiness from Hit Movies and the Private civic)
• Virtual Reality Theatre is unchanged; it already has +2 .

Another question: does the Zero-G Sports Arena need to give an XP bonus? Right now, the Arena and Zero-G Arena grant XP bonuses but the Stadium does not, so it feels like an odd building out. I can understand Arena giving an XP bonus, as sport and war in ancient eras are fairly closely intertwined, but not so much in the later eras. So I'd like to cut this bonus. We could also cut Zero-G's cost or add a Celebrity specialist (I'm leaning towards cutting the cost).

Never understood why it had an XP bonus myself. I'm in favor of it getting cut.

Story teller is something I wanted to bring up again but you were quicker I am absolutely for the change.

Agree on Z-g Arena too.

I was also thinking if we could make two more chains:
Forge --> Foundry --> Steel mill
Factory --> Manufacturing plant --> Industrial robots

Sogroon said:

I was also thinking if we could make two more chains:
Forge --> Foundry --> Steel mill
Factory --> Manufacturing plant --> Industrial robots

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Factory - Mfg Plant - Robots are a group, not a true chain; Factory is required for Mfg Plant and Mfg Plant is required for Robots. I don't quite want to make this a chain; too many things are dependent on Factory and I'd be worried about messing something up.

I believe that 45* and Joseph did a lot of work on Foundry and Steel Mill just before I started working on this mod, so I don't want to mess with that. I think it would be okay to add a 3 Foundry/1 Steel Mill requirement to keep the proliferation of Steel resources down too much, but I'd have to see what other people think.

It's perfectly ok with me to stop steel mill proliferation. Also I agree with Vokarya's opinion on other buildings.

While looking through the megacivpack UBs, sometimes I had the feeling "Why don't we have tavern? Maybe that would be a better replacement for this unique building."
I think Tavern (classical) and Inn (medieval) could make an excellent chain with Hotel and Vacation resort.

Sogroon said:

While looking through the megacivpack UBs, sometimes I had the feeling "Why don't we have tavern? Maybe that would be a better replacement for this unique building."
I think Tavern (classical) and Inn (medieval) could make an excellent chain with Hotel and Vacation resort.

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Since you asked...

Personally, I want to completely gut the Meeting Hall and rebuild it into a Tavern. From my perspective, the Meeting Hall violates a LOT of building conventions. I don't think ordinary (non-Wonder) buildings should have a minimum unit level to build; I don't think a combination of buildings alone (Barracks + Arena + Meeting Hall) should get units of any type (in this case Melee) to 5 XP this early (that's two promotions); and I don't like how Meeting Hall has absolutely no connection to any other building.

Here's what I think the Meeting Hall/Tavern should do instead:

• +1 commerce if connected to Capital
• +1 commerce if connected to 3 or more domestic cities
• +1 happiness from Alcohol
• 1 Merchant slot
• Upgrades to Hotel

If necessary, we could also give Tavern an espionage bonus, and that is a reason why I wanted to add espionage to Hotel/Vacation Resort.

We don't need two separate buildings prior to the Hotel; I think spacing three buildings out (Tavern at early Classical, Hotel at late Renaissance, Vacation Resort at mid-Modern) is enough.

Meeting Hall is the only source for experience for naval units until Naval Academy and Drydock, but I don't necessarily think losing that is a bad thing. In my playing, I feel that I have to give ocean-going naval units Maneuvering I to prevent them from being super-slow across oceans (oceans have a move cost of 2 and Maneuvering I is the only promotion that grants -1 terrain cost), but it feels forced. This would break the forcing.

I didn't know that you want to change Meeting hall, but I am all for it. I never understood why Meeting hall works the way it does.

I don't think it needs any espionage. Maybe a spy slot, but... Rather the Brothel can have a spy slot. I don't remember if it has one or not.

Sogroon said:

I didn't know that you want to change Meeting hall, but I am all for it. I never understood why Meeting hall works the way it does.

I don't think it needs any espionage. Maybe a spy slot, but... Rather the Brothel can have a spy slot. I don't remember if it has one or not.

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The only reason for giving espionage to Tavern is that Meeting Hall has an innate +15% espionage, but losing it wouldn't hurt. Brothel gives +25%. I don't think it needs Spy slots. I have to do some checking, but I think we may have enough Spy slots.

I'm putting together a master building spreadsheet and I noticed that Accelerator has both a mandatory power requirement and +10% commerce with power. I also don't see Accelerator as a building that should produce general commerce, so I think instead we should increase Accelerator to +25% science (it currently provides 20%) and drop the general commerce bonus.

Actually I think accelerators can also generate commerce (we have one here in my city); maybe 10% is too much, but I also think 20% science is enough already.

45°38'N-13°47'E;13620109 said:

Actually I think accelerators can also generate commerce (we have one here in my city); maybe 10% is too much, but I also think 20% science is enough already.

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How about a flat 5% commerce, then?

Vokarya said:

How about a flat 5% commerce, then?

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Sounds good to me [emoji4]
Thanks Vokarya!

45°38'N-13°47'E;13620109 said:

Actually I think accelerators can also generate commerce (we have one here in my city)

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You make me curious why it should? Honestly. Can you explain, please?