Civics Improvements Suggestions

Okay, here are my thoughts on a "Justice" civic category:

Vigilantism (Starting civic)
No Upkeep
+33% slower population growth rate

Hammurabic Law (Available at Code of laws)
Low Upkeep
-25% Distance from Palace Maintenance
+1 in all cities
+10%
+10%

Common Law (Available at Philosophy)
Medium Upkeep
+1 from Courthouse
-10%

Inquisitorial Law (Available with whatever tech unlocks Intolerant)
Low Upkeep
-10% Distance from Palace Maintenance
-10% Maintenance from Number of Cities
+3 in all cities
+2 in cities with the state religion
+50% for training Inquisitors

Adversarial Law (Available at Social Contract)
High Upkeep
+1 in all cities
+1 from Courthouse
+25% Foreign Connectedness

I am worried the civics are all a bit too similar and not very unique or original. Maybe some of you have some ideas.

Looks ok.
Though -10% for Common Law seem a bit harsh. However, I don't mind it overmuch if still keep it in.
I think you can safely toss Hammurabic Law because it is too similar to Common Law. Better to have Common Law at Code of Laws, then at Philosophy made a civic building for that civic available that standardize the Common Law finally.
Otherwise, as I said, it looks good.

os79 said:

Looks ok.
Though -10% for Common Law seem a bit harsh. However, I don't mind it overmuch if still keep it in.
I think you can safely toss Hammurabic Law because it is too similar to Common Law. Better to have Common Law at Code of Laws, then at Philosophy made a civic building for that civic available that standardize the Common Law finally.
Otherwise, as I said, it looks good.

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I just don't like the effects at all. I think if I can't come up with some better ideas for Justice I will leave that category out for now.

Afforess said:

I just don't like the effects at all. I think if I can't come up with some better ideas for Justice I will leave that category out for now.

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Hmm.
I still think that Rule category can basically condense the concept of whether these three branches are under one power or separated. Then the civic categories can better give effects. The reason is that sometimes there is a government with all three functions under one ruling entity, others have separated between these three (all three separated, executive and legislative under one and judicial another, executive and judicial under one and legislative another, executive under one and legislative and judicial under another.)
Then you can make strong effects from that category only.
My suggestions .

os79 said:

Hmm.
I still think that Rule category can basically condense the concept of whether these three branches are under one power or separated. Then the civic categories can better give effects. The reason is that sometimes there is a government with all three functions under one ruling entity, others have separated between these three (all three separated, executive and legislative under one and judicial another, executive and judicial under one and legislative another, executive under one and legislative and judicial under another.)
Then you can make strong effects from that category only.
My suggestions .

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Hmmmmmm....

I don't know. I did look over the Rule civic category and I honestly am pretty ok with the civics are there now. Besides renaming the category I don't think any changes need to be made.

I did like another users suggestion of "Territory Governance". The name is awful, but the ideas are good. I think "Domestic" could cover territory governance and merge/take-over the role of the Society category.

Afforess said:

Hmmmmmm....

I don't know. I did look over the Rule civic category and I honestly am pretty ok with the civics are there now. Besides renaming the category I don't think any changes need to be made.

I did like another users suggestion of "Territory Governance". The name is awful, but the ideas are good. I think "Domestic" could cover territory governance and merge/take-over the role of the Society category.

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If you mean the level of the government's involvement in people's private lives, then interesting ideas!

Afforess said:

I did like another users suggestion of "Territory Governance". The name is awful, but the ideas are good. I think "Domestic" could cover territory governance and merge/take-over the role of the Society category.

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I also think this is a good idea and we should probably expand discussion in this sense. As for justice civics they look ok to me, although they're not so intriguing as your other proposals. But I simply don't have better ideas at the moment.

45°38'N-13°47'E;13351943 said:

I also think this is a good idea and we should probably expand discussion in this sense. As for justice civics they look ok to me, although they're not so intriguing as your other proposals. But I simply don't have better ideas at the moment.

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I'm glad my idea got some attention despite the terrible name.

Some thoughts I had on what the effects could be (feel free to overrule, this is just some rough ideas I had in mind when I thought of the category) would be:

Tribal Villages - starting civic

• Limits to 3 cities
• Increse Local rebelliousness
• Available around same time frame as Masonry(so that 3 city timeframe isn't altered too much)

Reasoning: Starting civic, shouldn't be very good, and as loosely affiliated villages there won't be any great advantages to them

City State- Early civic that benefits small civs, modeled after Ancient Greece

• Large (+4 or more) increase in and in first x cities (or x largest if first isn't possible)
• Very large increase to number of cities maintenance
• Increases local rebelliousness, decreases national
• Possibly boost to %

Reasoning: Cities are able to focus on using local resources to best meet the needs of local citizens. Local focus makes working towards national goals costly. Citizens are more loyal to the city than the nation.

Provincial- Early civic for large civs, modeled after Roman Empire

• + % and % in capitol; - % and % in all others
• Decreased rebelliousness
• Bonus to settler construction?
• Bonus to road construction (if possible?)

Reasoning: Should be the first civic to benefit early large empires, and those looking to expand. Power is concentrated in the capitol. Transportation is important for maintaining order in farther cities.

Manors/Fiefs- Middle era civic, modeled after Medieval Europe

• + % and %
• Very large increase to number of cities maintenance
• +1 from workshop
• Possibly + or
• Increased local rebelliousness

Reasoning: Again local focus improves ability to address local issues, but rather than focusing on well being of citizens as in City-State, the focus is on maximizing economic output. Increases in maintenance force it to be used for smaller empires. Gives small empires a choice of maximizing population(City-State) or production/gold

Bureaucracy - Middle era large empire civic
Keep as is?

Centralized or Nation State- modeled for modern unified nation states with a strong central government

• + %
• small + and in all cities
• + % bonus to national wonder construction (if possible)
• Possible bonus to ?

Reasoning: This should benefit mid-sized Renaissance and later empires(Federal as it is takes over benefits to large empires). The centralized focus allows the government to focus on things that will have national benefits, and the unity inspires national cultural pride. Centralizing government intel improves ability for

Federal/Confederation (moved from government category)
Keep as is?

Obviously not anywhere near a final idea, but just thoughts. Feel free to keep them or throw them out and go with something completely different. The idea was that this would be a good way to allow Republic and Democracy to keep their current effects and use these to benefit small vs large empires.

Tribal Villages - starting civic

Limits to 3 cities
Increse Local rebelliousness
Available around same time frame as Masonry(so that 3 city timeframe isn't altered too much)

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1 exception, no 3 city limit, as it really is not necessary. If this is removed (even in the current Civics set) then the Mod set up Option No City Limits by Civics would not be even necessary for the mod and could be axed as others want. Realistically, on this 1st Civic option for this category, the way the mod plays it's not easy to get many more cities than 3 during this time frame. So the 3 city limit is rather redundant.

Otherwise nice set of proposals.

JosEPh

I really don't see why the 3-City Limit is such a terrible thing. In most games by the time you've gotten your third city, you've long had the option to switch out of Chiefdom or whatever's holding you back. The only times I've ever not had the option to switch out by that time was when I had to lower my Research rate to like, 20% or 10%, or have been intentionally avoiding Masonry to chase down some other tech. Usually it's my first goal to get there and swap out, then send the Settlers I've been stockpiling to snare some nearby resrources.

Heck, the AI usually beats me to swapping out of Chiefdom before I'm even researching the tech that gets you out of it.

I like the max 3 cities rule too, it gives the "tribal feeling" for the game
It is not redundant, as one may collect many settlers from goodyhuts. It happend with me that EVERY goody hut rolled a settler for me, I had about 10 or so
It also matters if you play with rev on.


@88GTS
Looks good to me too.

We need some civic buildings too:

Tribal Villages - ?
City State - Polis counsel
Provincial - ?
Manors/Fiefs - Shanty town?
Bureaucracy - keep civil servant's school
Centralized or Nation State - ?
Federal/Confederation - ?

Afforess said:

I just don't like the effects at all. I think if I can't come up with some better ideas for Justice I will leave that category out for now.

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Try to toy with civic buildings and specialists.
For example I always thought Intolerant should give +1 for priests. Now with Inquisitorial Law it would be just appropriate IMO
We also have the Magistrate specialist that could have some nice bonus also. E.g. -1 for Magistrates with Vigilantism, since the lawyers are bandits - literally
(I know, I know we want simple civic choises )

Sogroon said:

I like the max 3 cities rule too, it gives the "tribal feeling" for the game
It is not redundant, as one may collect many settlers from goodyhuts. It happend with me that EVERY goody hut rolled a settler for me, I had about 10 or so
It also matters if you play with rev on.


<snip>

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It is redundant, Collecting settlers and Building cities are two different things.

Also If you ever get 10 settlers from goody huts you have to be playing on Settler difficulty. You will not get settlers from goody huts on Noble and above. So your argument isn't that relevant. There just isn't a good argument to have this arbitrary limit. Because it's arbitrary.

At this stage of the game (start) it does not matter whether Rev is on or not.

JosEPh

Rezca said:

I really don't see why the 3-City Limit is such a terrible thing. In most games by the time you've gotten your third city, you've long had the option to switch out of Chiefdom or whatever's holding you back. The only times I've ever not had the option to switch out by that time was when I had to lower my Research rate to like, 20% or 10%, or have been intentionally avoiding Masonry to chase down some other tech. Usually it's my first goal to get there and swap out, then send the Settlers I've been stockpiling to snare some nearby resrources.

Heck, the AI usually beats me to swapping out of Chiefdom before I'm even researching the tech that gets you out of it.

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@Rezca,
You just validated my position. Not by your opening statement but by the rest of your post. Which by the way are good examples of why the 3 city limit on Chiefdom and the No City Limits by civics Option (to counter this limit on Chrifdom) are unneeded and just clutter the mod. Remove both and there is no "cheating" out of a Civic or reduction in gameplay.

If Afforess or 45* would just remove both, it would not affect anyone's gameplay and would not be a possible hindrance to the AI either. And would soon be forgotten, lighten the Mod up and remove unnecessary code. AND2.0 is hitting 1.68+ GB and will soon need to be checked for duplicate files and files that have been commented out to remove the excess baggage and slim the mod a bit.

JosEPh

Actually in my view this limit is also a way to stop ai switching back to chiefdom at a later time. Once you have more than 3 cities there's no turning back to chiefdom, which is a good thing

JosEPh_II said:

It is redundant, Collecting settlers and Building cities are two different things.

Also If you ever get 10 settlers from goody huts you have to be playing on Settler difficulty. You will not get settlers from goody huts on Noble and above. (...)
JosEPh

Click to expand...

Then also remove all difficulties bellow Noble, because no one plays on them, huh?

I still don't really see how Chiefdom is a bad thing. I feel I expand quick and early yes, bvut I've never had Chiefdom hinder me nor the AI. Maybe for a few turns at most, but it's never been a problem. My games turn out exactly the same with or without the city limiting (And I only play on Noble/Prince anymore. The 'extra settlers' come from a city or two building them to avoid growing into unhappiness/unhealth)


Not exactly defending or supporting City Limits, I just don't see why it's such a terrible thing. Revolutions, yeah I can see why many people don't exactly like it, but the 3-City limit in the earliest stages of the game I don't. Unless I'm in a seriously bad starting position, I won't even have three cities by the time you're getting out of Chiefdom. Not that I could really support like, 5 or 6 cities that early in the game anyway. Not without killing myself in research and finances.

I'm more confused than anything here ^^;
But with differing playstyles, Chiefdom might be a 'great evil' to some while being absolutely irrelevant to others. For me, it's almost always been irrelevant unless I got some godly starting position and quickly outgrew my rivals in those starting turns

(My humble opinion of course~)

Sogroon said:

I like the max 3 cities rule too, it gives the "tribal feeling" for the game
It is not redundant, as one may collect many settlers from goodyhuts. It happend with me that EVERY goody hut rolled a settler for me, I had about 10 or so
It also matters if you play with rev on.


@88GTS
Looks good to me too.

We need some civic buildings too:

Tribal Villages - ?
City State - Polis counsel
Provincial - ?
Manors/Fiefs - Shanty town?
Bureaucracy - keep civil servant's school
Centralized or Nation State - ?
Federal/Confederation - ?

Click to expand...

Thanks, and agreed regarding buildings, but I left them out since it's ultimately up to the mod developers whether they want to include all, some, or none of my ideas. But as some ideas:

Tribal Villages - As a starting civic, don't think it needs one
City State - Polis counsel
Provincial - Colonia or Castrum (or if that's too Rome-centric, Outpost). Early definition of colonia were small settlements (300 or so people) by Rome to secure territory. They were often settled by former soldiers. Castrum was the name given to the defensive structures. Game effects could be +10% city defense and 10% food stored after growth or similar. Maybe + with a Great Military Instructor if it's possible.
Manors/Fiefs - Shanty town. Or name the civic fiefs/fiefdom and make the building Manor. Improved and at cost of .
Bureaucracy - keep civil servant's school
Centralized or Nation State - Not sure. Local Office? + and ?
Federal/Confederation - State Capitol - Game effects, -% maintenance, + with democracy or republic, + % unit production with monarchy or despotism if it's possible to implement.

Well just to comment, I've been playing a game with my proposed changes to the Government civic and I tried to go for a small empire on purpose. It's been quite a rough game, and I will upload saves later on. But, while a small empire was harder it was not impossible. Although I did end up perpetually at war due to my inability to make peace with larger empires and them continually purchasing war allies.

Interestingly I am able to keep up scientifically and monetarily fine with my new civics, but in terms of military I am fighting to keep a foothold. So I think it's fairly well balanced so far, but I want to play a few more games.

Okay, here is my save. I am down 1 only one city, but revolutions are working in my favor. I actually have a save that is 500 turns later, but I am curious if any on the forum can pull out a victory in these dire circumstances better than mine.

My advice: Rush for Democracy, switch to Republic. Keep fighting, you don't have much choice in regards to wars.

Prince Difficulty, Erebus Continents Map, Revision 767.