[FfH Lite] - Brainstorming

I've been thinking about making a trimmed down version of FfH2. The idea would be to make it faster paced, less fluff, more tactics, and hopefully something that is easier to balance and play.

I'm not sure I will ever have time to mod this myself, so I hope I will get people on board who can do much of the work for me. But I want to start this with this thread and see if there is interest and if you have any ideas to how it should eventually be?

My thoughts so far:

Civs

• Keep all civs

Buildings

• Remove some buildings
• Maybe merge some building effects into one building.
• Lower costs on most buildings.

Units

• (Maybe) Remove some units
• Have a unit limit. Maybe fixed, maybe dependent on certain factors.
• Have a limit on units per tile. Maybe increased by having Commanders attached.

Magic

• Remove some spells
• Redesign some spells
• Maybe change how Mana works. Maybe have mana type decided on game start.

Techs

• Not sure

Anyways. If you got ideas, thoughts, time. Please help me here.
I will probably not be able to make anything out of this without someone willing to help me mod this as the time I am willing/able to spend on this will not be a lot.


This might never become anything, since I guess it goes against why most people play this game.
So if this generate interest maybe we can design something we can eventually start modding.
Basically want the whole mod designed before I start doing any xml/etc work.

Interesting. Why would you want to remove some techs though? IIRC, there's really as many tech as in BTS. So not too many.

The number limit on units may be a good idea. The limit of number of units on a tile is not, imho.

I'm just going to throw in something I thought of while reading your post - Unit limits might make for an interesting game. What if the only unlimited units were Warrriors, Scouts and Workers? You could have the limits be 10 axemen, 6 champions and 3 Phalanxes. With the right hammer and beaker costs, there could be interesting decisions to be made between going up the tech tree for more powerful units, or along the tree for more units. A player with Bronze working at his axeman limit might go for Horseback Riding to get 10 horseman units, or he could go high for Champions.

Alternatively, you could introduce some variety with different unit limits. It might be Bronzeworking allows 5 Axemen, Horseback riding allows 4 Horsemen and Hunting allows 8 Hunters.

If you design the game to be played on Small/Standard size maps, these numbers would be easier to tweak.

Edit: IMO, you could fold together RoK and Empyrean, cut the religion Council of Esus (but leave its units) giving you 5 religions instead of 7.

i'm fan of that !!

I'd remove channeling 3 ... (( except nature 3 )) ...

Opera said:

Interesting. Why would you want to remove some techs though? IIRC, there's really as many tech as in BTS. So not too many.

The number limit on units may be a good idea. The limit of number of units on a tile is not, imho.

Click to expand...

Ok might not need to remove techs. At least not that many of em. Actually might need to be more conservative here cause I want the diversity still.

Maybe increasing support cost (( unit's outside cult. borders )) - that will lead to using less units for attack... kinda ... or set some # of support-free units and for units above this set insane support cost - that will force to use less units for attack

I'd personally prefer you release a streamlined version of FF, perhaps reducing it to just FfH content but keeping the functionality.



I don't really think that FfH needs to have any buildings cut or merged. FF on the otherhand badly needs its buildings to be streamlined. FfH would be better off just giving minor bonuses to buildings that currently do nothing but allow the production of certain units. I'd make Siege Workshops allow an Engineer slot and Stables add a trade route.


The only unit I think needs to go is the Lightbringer. I'd recommend making Lightbringers be a Malakim Vicar UU instead of a seperate unit. Can land units be given the ability to perform air recon missions? That might be a good representation of the Scrying ability they are known for in the lore.


I've never been a fan of most of the Worldspells. I'd recommend cutting them, turning some of them into rituals or events instead. Several spells could use reworking. All spell sphere promotions should require mana, not just the first level. Perhaps the strength of a spell could be tied to how much of the appropriate mana you possess at the time it is cast. Maybe even moving to a system where each mana type works like fuel in that old mod of yours would be good. I think it would be a good idea for some (maybe most, but not all) of the mana on the map to already be differentiated into one of the 21 spheres.


As far as techs, I'd probably only cut Mithril Weapons (merging it with Mithril Working) and Seafaring (giving the Lanun Fishing instead and perhaps making Seafaring a civ trait).

This sounds cool.

Techs that could easily be merged: Mithril weapons/Mithril working; Guilds/Mercantilism; Precision/Machinery;
Theology could be cut, simply making the upgraded priests available at priesthood, but with a lvl 7-8 prereq and a substantial amount of gold.
Same with strength of will.

Buildings that could be cut/merged:

Inn/Tavern

Units:
Horse archers/chariots are mostly the same and dependant on access to metal one always dominates the other, so one should be cut.
Instead of a unit limit, I'd rather increase the cost of advanced units or decrease the amount of military production multipliers, which are available lategame.

Magic:
Priestly magic is pretty much fine,
Arcane could use some work, but not sure what to do there.

I'm considering limiting the amount of buildings in a city. And then boosting every building so they are much more attractive choices. Maybe make some buildings upgradeable.

MagisterCultuum said:

I'd personally prefer you release a streamlined version of FF, perhaps reducing it to just FfH content but keeping the functionality.

Click to expand...

I'll probably do something like that.

I don't really think that FfH needs to have any buildings cut or merged. FF on the otherhand badly needs its buildings to be streamlined. FfH would be better off just giving minor bonuses to buildings that currently do nothing but allow the production of certain units. I'd make Siege Workshops allow an Engineer slot and Stables add a trade route.

Click to expand...

As I mentioned in my previous post I'm considering boosting all buildings and have a city have a max amount of buildings (maybe determined by city size or something else).

The only unit I think needs to go is the Lightbringer. I'd recommend making Lightbringers be a Malakim Vicar UU instead of a seperate unit. Can land units be given the ability to perform air recon missions? That might be a good representation of the Scrying ability they are known for in the lore.

Click to expand...

I think the Air recon mission automatically makes the unit fly (animation-wise) so probably not a good way to do it. Better to program it to reveal tiles for a turn to simulate the effect (where you click just like air recon).

I've never been a fan of most of the Worldspells. I'd recommend cutting them, turning some of them into rituals or events instead.

Click to expand...

I kinda like that each civ has a world spell. I might change them however.

Several spells could use reworking. All spell sphere promotions should require mana, not just the first level. Perhaps the strength of a spell could be tied to how much of the appropriate mana you possess at the time it is cast.

Click to expand...

Worth considering.

Maybe even moving to a system where each mana type works like fuel in that old mod of yours would be good. I think it would be a good idea for some (maybe most, but not all) of the mana on the map to already be differentiated into one of the 21 spheres.

Click to expand...

Maybe, but I don't want to overcomplicate things.
And yeah if I go that path, I might keep some plain mana for some choice. But I kinda like the idea of forcing mana types on the player depending on the map. I mean, it works for the other resources, right? - Then the AI have to value a mana for mana trade depending on its needs.

As far as techs, I'd probably only cut Mithril Weapons (merging it with Mithril Working) and Seafaring (giving the Lanun Fishing instead and perhaps making Seafaring a civ trait).

Click to expand...

Sounds good.

Techs need to be cut
Civs need to be cut
Buildings need to be cut
Magic needs to be available earlier
Sorcerers need to be able to be built straight-up, make them national units or whatever.
Mana node system is unnecessary and adds little

Personally, I really don't see a need to cut anything from base FFH. It already has plenty of flavor, and moves in a very streamlined manner. I do agree that a few little things could use changing (mostly, the complete and utter dominance of the melee line), but for the most part, FFH is a nice, complete game. Now, if you wanted to cut things from FF or Orbis, that I could see doing, as both have many new features that some people love and others hate.

-Colin

readercolin said:

Personally, I really don't see a need to cut anything from base FFH. It already has plenty of flavor, and moves in a very streamlined manner. I do agree that a few little things could use changing (mostly, the complete and utter dominance of the melee line), but for the most part, FFH is a nice, complete game. Now, if you wanted to cut things from FF or Orbis, that I could see doing, as both have many new features that some people love and others hate.

-Colin

Click to expand...

Most of the mechanics are clunky and pointless. Roughly 30% of the techs are effectively useless. Most of the wonders are effectively usless. Etc.

Here's what I'm thinking for Civs:

1. Calabim
2. Clan
3. Elohim
4. Balseraph
5. Luchiurp
6. Lanun
7. Shieam
8. Ljolsolfar
9. Mercurian
10. Infernal

For Religions:
Cut either Order or Empyrean (Order and Empyrean are too similar)
Cut Essus (not enough unique viable mechanics)

This may be too much of an extreme, but I know that the Mac crowd would absolutely love you if you created a version of FfH that didn't use a new dll file. I think 18 civ options with the core python, XML, and graphic features could be pretty cool.

A non-dll FfH would not be very good. You'd have to cut magic, alignments, and pretty much everything that makes FfH FfH.

One important difference between buildings on the one hand and units and spells on the other is that you always have most of the buildings available to you, but not most of the units (if you specialize down a few paths) or spells. So, in my view, the multitude of units and spells does not really clog the game much, buildings however are available in abundance, and often to little/questionable benefit. Making the choice between different buildings more viable (boost) and important (limit on the numbr of buildings) sounds like an interesting idea IMO.

Here's an idea for magic:

Instead of three levels of arcane units, make it into four classes: Elementalist, Diviner, Necromancer, and Alterer(?) (Enchanter?). Each automatically has access to level 1 promotions of their respective spell categories, and only those:

• Elementalist: Fire, Air, Earth, Water
• Diviner: Life, Law, Spirit, Sun
• Necromancer: Death, Entropy, Chaos, Shadow
• Enchanter: Mind, Body, Nature, Enchantment

Channeling II will be unlocked with Sorcery, and III with Strength of Will (if the magic line remains the same).

Changes I suggest to the magic tech line:

• Merge KotE with something earlier, such a Mysticism, or just not require Mage Guilds and cut it completely (preferred).
• Merge Arcane Lore up (preferred) or down.
• Cutting KotE and AL will effectively decrease the for the four categories and SoW, so leave them as is.

Since the casters no longer upgrade to units with higher , the need for Guardsman will be greater. Or, Channeling II & III can each add +1 (with appropriate adjustments to priests and other non-arcanes with Channeling II & III). The free xp no longer scales, so it can be raised, or else linked to the Channeling promos.

Mana nodes can still be built, but having extra mana only increases the effectiveness of spells (summon affinity, spell damage, casting time for delayed spells(?) (add delays to more spells?)).

Sounds like your aiming for FfH Rev... or even FfH 1.

If you're looking for cuts to simplify things, I'd cut all the "build this building to build these units" buildings and just have the units available when you research the relevant techs. (OK, this option is available in the game options anyway, but you said you wanted to simplify things...)

You could also cut out some of the Barb / Demon units and the Armageddon counter, though you'll lose a lot of flavour if you do so. (Again these options are already in the game, so should be a relatively easy cut)