Proposed Properties

Ok, let's talk further about the Education property as it is so far implemented.

First of all, I really hope those of us working on this realize it's a mess right now and if it's going to continue to be included at all it needs to be worked on extensively before the next release. AKA, it must be top priority now or be removed.

Issues:
1) I do not know how it's resetting its values on recalculation. This is a major problem for the game as it means you're screwing yourself over if you do a recalc! I can try to look into this but it greatly confuses me as I don't see how it would be handled any differently than any other property during recalculation... very strange indeed.

2) The current emergent buildings that are generated automatically in cities based on the Education property levels are obviously just placeholders right now. Their effects are next to nothing at the moment. With this in mind, it does very little to have or not have education when you take away the intended setup of applying to many research and health buildings a prerequisite to build them and at the moment, we have not yet determined how to properly set that up yet.

3) There's some logic issues involved in the property setup. It makes some sense that the population would 'diffuse' or diminish the property output, soaking up some of the production of the property in a community as it takes more overall effort to educate the community. HOWEVER, not only is this currently now shut off for some reason, it's also not really a rational approach when the property volume is utilized as a prerequisite for advanced buildings. Even in a very large population, you'll still have some elite educated individuals driving the construction and operation of such buildings, even if most of the population is undereducated.

So what does the property volume really mean? Is it the highest level of education that exists among the most educated or is it the average education level? If it stands for the highest level, then the building prereqs are rational but population diffusion is irrational. If it is the average level, then building prereqs are irrational but population diffusion is rational. If it is the highest level, then what force acts against the buildings that are adding education? If it is the average level, then what should the property be acting to accomplish if not establishing building prereqs?

4)MrAzure suggested, in the bugs thread, a way to graphically fix the property panel in cities so that the scrollbar doesn't sit over the top of the numeric displays in relation to their properties but apparently though suggested and tested, it has not yet been implemented? Why not? It really needs to be immediately done!

5) Right now we've replaced research on libraries and universities but I'd urge against a full replacement there. Most cutting edge research takes place in these locations so while I can understand removing flat +/- research modifiers, they'd certainly have a +% effect still so that when research is spent on by governmental funding, you'd have it taking place in those locations and more readily enabled therein as well.



So aside from some technical difficulties I think we should also rethink exactly what the property volume and rates mean and from there formulate a plan as to what it actually does.

My proposition is to approach the property as if it is representative of the AVERAGE education level.

This means:
1) Establishing the property values as prerequisites on any buildings becomes irrational as you'd always have more educated folks among the elite bureaucratic classes.
2) All benefits and penalties associated with Education must be considered along the basis of asking the question: "How would a more or less commonly educated populace be a good or bad thing?
3) Some answers:

a)Positive can be somewhat bad. More educated populations have a far greater chance of revolt thus as education levels rise, revolt sentiments rise as well. (+ revolution sentiments)

b)Overall research RATES would increase. There are more minds thinking to solve cutting edge problems, more empowerment among the people to express insights to the leaders in those fields of research, and more opportunity for the less 'elite' classes to offer contributions to society that may lead to major technological progress. (+ flat tech commerce volume)

c)The emergence of Great People would be accelerated. How many people in an undereducated society simply missed out on the opportunity to become something truly great? A society that strongly values giving even the common person an opportunity to learn will give rise to a lot more movers and shakers. (+GG emergence %)

d)Yes, other negative properties such as crime, pollution and disease would be diminished due to people being taught more about how their actions impact for good or bad the world around them. It removes the 'ignorance' factor that causes a great many mistakes among the mass population. (- cumulatively increasing volumes of negative properties)

e)Society would be more effective in all roles. Thus all yields would be influenced as there would be more efficiency, less waste, more accomplishment as the people are given a standard base of knowledge and know-how to achieve all of their jobs in the most effective ways. (Thus, with each emergent building level in education, we simply add +5% to each yield and perhaps even an additional +5% to each commerce.)

f)Another drawback: Society would not populate as quickly as they would be taking more time to learn rather than jumping into procreation as early as they might otherwise. They would also be more responsible and have a better concept of why they may not wish to yet burden themselves with children before going on to assert achievements of their own professionally. (Cities would take +x more to grow.)

g)Some buildings would become more or less effective. As a LONG TERM part of the project, buildings should be independently adjusted in effectiveness based on varying degrees of education level. These can be done a little at a time, slowly introducing modifiers on these to aid in game balance and immersion here and there.
 
What makes you think crime goes down with education.
Take fraud for instance.
A fishmonger at the market at most sells you a rotten fish for few bucks.
Directors of company practice fraud and cheat millions
 
My wife just made a similar point... my thinking was that it tends to be that very intelligent people tend to turn to crime less and honest achievement more if they are given ample access to education and certification but it's true that it's also a double edged sword - they are also yet more empowered to commit yet more complex and tougher to unravel crimes as well. So if it doesn't impact crime at all and is considered as harmful as helpful that could work too.
 
I am 100% sure that there is less crime in a higher educated society. If you are uneducated you often won´t even realize that you are cheated. And if you are educated and tend to read newspapers and watch the news you will quickly learn how the cheats happen and how to prevent them. You will also know more about your rights and how to fight for them at a court if you are educated. All of the frauds that happen in highly educated nations will happen in the other countries, too.


On another side: Thank you Thunderbrd for taking this into your hands. There has been so much work on education but the development stopped shortly before it was finished. The same is true (as far as I see) for Electricity (Energy).
 
Similarly for Pollution.

An urbanized city like London, compared to native tribes living in jungles.
Which place is more polluted?
 
If the technical difficulties are numerous, then we are going to have to remove the new properties until AiAndy takes a look.

The only section currently affected is Hydromancerx module folder and a Sargon wonder which we can revert them to an earlier SVN.

Majority of my work right now has been Transhuman and Prehistoric stuff.
Am I did do the ground work for Energy but I haven't coded anything yet.
I have no problem admitting defeat, it was a marvelous idea but if it doesn't work, we can shelve it until it's fixed.
 
Similarly for Pollution.

An urbanized city like London, compared to native tribes living in jungles.
Which place is more polluted?

London is not polluted more because the people are more educated. When people were less educated 100 years ago London was much, much worse.

One example: Higher educated people tend to not throw all their waste out of the car window.
 
I have no problem admitting defeat, it was a marvelous idea but if it doesn't work, we can shelve it until it's fixed.

Just like I had to do with Barbarian and Extended Diplomacy. Although I think there has been enough work done to enable me to work on it again.:D
 
I'm working on getting a pm to AIAndy asking him for some advice and help in addressing the few issues we'll need his help with. The property is otherwise not so 'broken' as to need it retracted. I think I could easily come up with some balancing developments on the emergent buildings that should serve as a sufficient basis to justify the property for now. That should be fairly easy. The technical issues are minor if I can get some simple answers from Andy on the matter.
 
And compared to an "uneducated" developing country in the middle of industrial evolution?
I still think CO2 emission should be handled different from air pollution. It don't make breathing any harder if you rise the CO2-Level (like it is now) nor will it cause toxic atmospheres for humans. A city with a lot of industry can release a lot of CO2 but if filtered correctly, there is almost no smog or worse things.


As for crime, maybe it could obsolete some crimes while enabeling others. "Time Travel something" or "Astroid to Earth Terrorism" sure requires some level of education while others are mostly uneducated people crimes. Sure there will be murders that are better thought, but think of all the muders in cities with ghettos. Simply shooting someone while getting in a fight. This is the big majority of murders.
 
Ok, let's talk further about the Education property as it is so far implemented.

First of all, I really hope those of us working on this realize it's a mess right now and if it's going to continue to be included at all it needs to be worked on extensively before the next release. AKA, it must be top priority now or be removed.

Issues:
1) I do not know how it's resetting its values on recalculation. This is a major problem for the game as it means you're screwing yourself over if you do a recalc! I can try to look into this but it greatly confuses me as I don't see how it would be handled any differently than any other property during recalculation... very strange indeed.

2) The current emergent buildings that are generated automatically in cities based on the Education property levels are obviously just placeholders right now. Their effects are next to nothing at the moment. With this in mind, it does very little to have or not have education when you take away the intended setup of applying to many research and health buildings a prerequisite to build them and at the moment, we have not yet determined how to properly set that up yet.

3) There's some logic issues involved in the property setup. It makes some sense that the population would 'diffuse' or diminish the property output, soaking up some of the production of the property in a community as it takes more overall effort to educate the community. HOWEVER, not only is this currently now shut off for some reason, it's also not really a rational approach when the property volume is utilized as a prerequisite for advanced buildings. Even in a very large population, you'll still have some elite educated individuals driving the construction and operation of such buildings, even if most of the population is undereducated.

So what does the property volume really mean? Is it the highest level of education that exists among the most educated or is it the average education level? If it stands for the highest level, then the building prereqs are rational but population diffusion is irrational. If it is the average level, then building prereqs are irrational but population diffusion is rational. If it is the highest level, then what force acts against the buildings that are adding education? If it is the average level, then what should the property be acting to accomplish if not establishing building prereqs?

4)MrAzure suggested, in the bugs thread, a way to graphically fix the property panel in cities so that the scrollbar doesn't sit over the top of the numeric displays in relation to their properties but apparently though suggested and tested, it has not yet been implemented? Why not? It really needs to be immediately done!

5) Right now we've replaced research on libraries and universities but I'd urge against a full replacement there. Most cutting edge research takes place in these locations so while I can understand removing flat +/- research modifiers, they'd certainly have a +% effect still so that when research is spent on by governmental funding, you'd have it taking place in those locations and more readily enabled therein as well.

Hi i wish i could help more but i catched some kind of flu.

1) That is because of bSourceDrain is set to 0 for the new properties.

2) The Code for checking the PrereqMinProperties and PrereqMaxProperties tags on buildings was misplaced in CvCity.cpp it is only active for Corporation Buildings. You can try the attached file and see if it fixes this.
 

Attachments

  • CvCity.7z
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Hi i wish i could help more but i catched some kind of flu.

1) That is because of bSourceDrain is set to 0 for the new properties.

2) The Code for checking the PrereqMinProperties and PrereqMaxProperties tags on buildings was misplaced in CvCity.cpp it is only active for Corporation Buildings. You can try the attached file and see if it fixes this.

Again, nicely done!

Ok, first issue will be easily resolved.

On the second though... the text states that it's going to require that the city have a RATE of the specified amount rather than a VOLUME. So while that's a good fix of the tag's function, I suspect this particular tag still doesn't quite fit the bill we're looking for since we want a prereq of the VOLUME of the property in the city and not the RATE.

So I still suspect we'll need an expression system use of the Build Condition tag or something along those lines.

Either way, I also warn that the implementation of giving all these buildings these prereqs based on education is standing on shaky ground from a rationale perspective to begin with.

EDIT: just took a look at the compare between the current file and the one you provided... nice catch!:lol:
 
Again, nicely done!

Ok, first issue will be easily resolved.

On the second though... the text states that it's going to require that the city have a RATE of the specified amount rather than a VOLUME. So while that's a good fix of the tag's function, I suspect this particular tag still doesn't quite fit the bill we're looking for since we want a prereq of the VOLUME of the property in the city and not the RATE.

So I still suspect we'll need an expression system use of the Build Condition tag or something along those lines.

Either way, I also warn that the implementation of giving all these buildings these prereqs based on education is standing on shaky ground from a rationale perspective to begin with.

The Properties have Change and Value. Change must be the Rate and Value the Volume the code checks the Value of the Property so i think the text is wrong.
 
@TB

Ok so to review the Education property, unlike the crime property I thought it could be used to unlock buildable buildings. However it was explained that while it could do that it also messed up when the education threshold went below. And showed it was buildable again when it wasn't. And even if you tried you could not. Correect?

So you went and commented out that code. So now the auto-build eduction builds still work but the buildable ones do not. This is still works out since the auto-build building still give the education property a purpose and work much like pollution or crime in that they auto-build at different education levels.

As for the system that unlocked buildable buildings, this is no more, however like I said its not so bad because the requirements the buildings had such as requiring a University for a Biology Lab or a Chemistry lab also indirectly did what the education property was suppose to be doing.

Tourism, Luxury and Entertainment properties are set up as properties but do not have any building implementation yet (expect for the Tourism Achievement NW). This is fine for now since its not hurting anything in the mod other than you can see them.

Education on the other hand has a real effect on the game thankls to those auto-build building. And even though unlocking buildable buildings with the education property is not working I still think that having it is the mod for release is worth it and works.

In addition we could have the health and science buildings require the auto-build buildings instead of the education property. However I think this solution is too messy and gives a too ridged solution. I would rather not have those disabled than try this proposal.

2) The current emergent buildings that are generated automatically in cities based on the Education property levels are obviously just placeholders right now. Their effects are next to nothing at the moment. With this in mind, it does very little to have or not have education when you take away the intended setup of applying to many research and health buildings a prerequisite to build them and at the moment, we have not yet determined how to properly set that up yet.

I feel that the set of 20 education auto-building are still worth having and DO add up since they are additive and do not replace each other. I also feel that they could be added-on to to make them more potent if we want to go that way.

So what does the property volume really mean? Is it the highest level of education that exists among the most educated or is it the average education level? If it stands for the highest level, then the building prereqs are rational but population diffusion is irrational. If it is the average level, then building prereqs are irrational but population diffusion is rational. If it is the highest level, then what force acts against the buildings that are adding education? If it is the average level, then what should the property be acting to accomplish if not establishing building prereqs?

Since this is modeled after the Sim City series I would say the average population. In that education as a whole has reach that level in that city. There will always be geniuses and idiots but the EQ of the city is basically impact it has on the city. For instance the fictional city of Eureka would have a HUGE EQ since its a whole city of scientists.

4)MrAzure suggested, in the bugs thread, a way to graphically fix the property panel in cities so that the scrollbar doesn't sit over the top of the numeric displays in relation to their properties but apparently though suggested and tested, it has not yet been implemented? Why not? It really needs to be immediately done!

I like this idea if it can be done. Seems like a great way to help the player visualize whats going on.

5) Right now we've replaced research on libraries and universities but I'd urge against a full replacement there. Most cutting edge research takes place in these locations so while I can understand removing flat +/- research modifiers, they'd certainly have a +% effect still so that when research is spent on by governmental funding, you'd have it taking place in those locations and more readily enabled therein as well.

This is not entirely true. I have left the science from techs or resources stuff. So while the major focus of these places is to produce education property some still do give science. Just MUCH less than before. I know this feels when playing like the game you have your hand tied behind your back, but overall it should fix the problem of having so much science and speeding through the techs even on slower speeds.

My proposition is to approach the property as if it is representative of the AVERAGE education level.

This is my view as well.

1) Establishing the property values as prerequisites on any buildings becomes irrational as you'd always have more educated folks among the elite bureaucratic classes.

Not necessarily. If you do not have enough students to take those classes then even the smart students will not have a class to go to.

a)Positive can be somewhat bad. More educated populations have a far greater chance of revolt thus as education levels rise, revolt sentiments rise as well. (+ revolution sentiments)

I wanted to put this but I was not sure how. However on the negative 10 they do have a reduction to War Weariness. So indirectly if you city has a high education level then they will be more upset from war than if they were not educated.

c)The emergence of Great People would be accelerated. How many people in an undereducated society simply missed out on the opportunity to become something truly great? A society that strongly values giving even the common person an opportunity to learn will give rise to a lot more movers and shakers. (+GG emergence %)

Good idea. I also assume that the dumber you get the harder it is to get GP right? Or can that property not be a negative?

d)Yes, other negative properties such as crime, pollution and disease would be diminished due to people being taught more about how their actions impact for good or bad the world around them. It removes the 'ignorance' factor that causes a great many mistakes among the mass population. (- cumulatively increasing volumes of negative properties)

This is implemented though +/- Flammability, Crime and Disease. This is heavily based on the Sim City model.

e)Society would be more effective in all roles. Thus all yields would be influenced as there would be more efficiency, less waste, more accomplishment as the people are given a standard base of knowledge and know-how to achieve all of their jobs in the most effective ways. (Thus, with each emergent building level in education, we simply add +5% to each yield and perhaps even an additional +5% to each commerce.)

Commerce means gold, science, culture so maybe. I see what you mean it just a slippery slope when it comes to commerce. Especially when we have other properties like Luxury and Tourism which undoubtedly will influence commerce in some way.

f)Another drawback: Society would not populate as quickly as they would be taking more time to learn rather than jumping into procreation as early as they might otherwise. They would also be more responsible and have a better concept of why they may not wish to yet burden themselves with children before going on to assert achievements of their own professionally. (Cities would take +x more to grow.)

I would agree with that.

g)Some buildings would become more or less effective. As a LONG TERM part of the project, buildings should be independently adjusted in effectiveness based on varying degrees of education level. These can be done a little at a time, slowly introducing modifiers on these to aid in game balance and immersion here and there.

Could you give an example of what you mean?
 
Similarly for Pollution.

An urbanized city like London, compared to native tribes living in jungles.
Which place is more polluted?

You are mixing up population with education. If you had two cities of the same size but different education I would bet the more educated one would be cleaner. Especially the higher populated the city is. Thus 2 small villages with different education levels might not be too different from each other but then you have megacities where being smarter means cleaner then it can be the difference from a utopian metropolis and a dystopian hell hole.
 
You are mixing up population with education. If you had two cities of the same size but different education I would bet the more educated one would be cleaner. Especially the higher populated the city is. Thus 2 small villages with different education levels might not be too different from each other but then you have megacities where being smarter means cleaner then it can be the difference from a utopian metropolis and a dystopian hell hole.

Thats just true if both cities has the same tech level, too.
 
I formatted the education properties as mentioned by alfred2.

Put the attached file into a module (maybe tweaks in Hydro's folder) and insert the correct schema.
Education properties do now work, the values are stored over assets changes.

Removed teh file as it coused the Domestic Advisor to stop working! :eek:
 
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