Unpopular Opinion Thread

traius · Oct 1, 2014

LincolnOfRome said:
I think it makes the game more difficult. Techs are great bribing tools.

What it does to the game is magnify things. If it's hard to keep up (deity) you now can no longer use the single greatest catch-up tool (trading a single unique tech to many AI's), nor can use the diplomacy wedge of bribing AI's, and so the game is harder. If it's easy to keep up (noble or below) the game is made even easier as now the ai can't even abuse a love-fest to keep up with you.
It also makes espionage economy much more attractive, which is kind of tangential on what it does to difficulty.

Mec AntiKythera · Oct 1, 2014

It may vary by level, I don't know. You can sometimes catch up in tech by trading a tech around to everyone, but maybe it is tech-trading between the AI that made you need to catch up in the first place. I seldom play with it turned off so I can't really say.

MilesBeyond · Oct 1, 2014

Caste System > Slavery. There. I said it.

Well, okay, no. That's obviously false. But I prefer CS to Slavery.

EDIT: I also think the Ballista Elephant gets an unfair rep. It's a crappy bonus, sure, but it's still a frigging War Elephant. A crappy boost to a good base unit is generally better than a good boost to a crappy base unit.

Moai_Spammer · Oct 1, 2014

MilesBeyond said:
Caste System > Slavery. There. I said it.

Well, okay, no. That's obviously false. But I prefer CS to Slavery.

EDIT: I also think the Ballista Elephant gets an unfair rep. It's a crappy bonus, sure, but it's still a frigging War Elephant. A crappy boost to a good base unit is generally better than a good boost to a crappy base unit.

my only beef with the ballista phant is that it still requires ivory to be built

otherwise, i think it's a pretty damn good unit, because the bonus is good when dealing with enemies with lots of horses and spears/pikes

jackelgull · Oct 1, 2014

MilesBeyond said:
Caste System > Slavery. There. I said it.

Well, okay, no. That's obviously false. But I prefer CS to Slavery.

EDIT: I also think the Ballista Elephant gets an unfair rep. It's a crappy bonus, sure, but it's still a frigging War Elephant. A crappy boost to a good base unit is generally better than a good boost to a crappy base unit.

100% agree with this. This is why the (insert misspelled name of Holy Roman UU) is met with ambivalent feelings. There is nothing wrong with the upgrade- it is in fact an extremely useful grade the +100% against melee, but pikemen are such crappy units- they come at an awkward place in the tech tree and they don't make good city takers that the +100% bonus is largely wasted on them.

Lennier · Oct 2, 2014

MilesBeyond said:
EDIT: I also think the Ballista Elephant gets an unfair rep. It's a crappy bonus, sure, but it's still a frigging War Elephant. A crappy boost to a good base unit is generally better than a good boost to a crappy base unit.

jackelgull said:
100% agree with this. This is why the (insert misspelled name of Holy Roman UU) is met with ambivalent feelings. There is nothing wrong with the upgrade- it is in fact an extremely useful grade the +100% against melee, but pikemen are such crappy units- they come at an awkward place in the tech tree and they don't make good city takers that the +100% bonus is largely wasted on them.

Quoted for truth.

Nexlev · Oct 2, 2014

I enjoy playing the protective trait. I don't think it's the worst trait, I just think it requires a unique approach to warfare.

Midnight-Blue766 · Oct 2, 2014

Once, I modded the game to give less hammers with Slavery and gave paid labour to Emancipation. It worked like a charm.

blitzkrieg1980 · Oct 3, 2014

drewisfat said:
making a map naval focused is weird when navies are awkward and useless to begin with in civ.

Gotta disagree with you on "navies being useless in civ". Using chain-galleons, you can easily go domination soon after getting Astronomy. Early navies seem useless to me, though. The only use they seem to have is annoying me with barb galleys forcing me to waste :hammers:

on triremes

drewisfat · Oct 4, 2014

Transports are fine of course.... and subs are necessary to nuke everyone, but other than that navies make no sense in civ, which is kind of a break from reality obviously.

You don't get significant tile bonuses on defense with a navy, and so regardless if you fight naval battles you will take significant losses. There's no way to avoid this, and you will end up taking a loss ratio waaaaaay too close to 1:1
And what do you gain?? You can blockade them and pillage their fish, but this requires you to spread your navy across their entire coast -- all that time taking losses while they attack with 40% odds to kill your ships. You need navies for the turn you are either dropping off all your troops or the turn you are nuking them. That doesn't require ships like destroyers/battleships and it's a fundamental flaw of the game. On the higher levels you rarely can afford to just throw hammers away on those ships.

scyt4l3 · Dec 27, 2014

TheMulattoMaker said:
FACT: Ice Archers can overcome any obstacle
FACT: A thread full of unpopular opinions needs some Attacko

this is the superior

You sir clearly are the superior for remembering the great Attacko :goodjob:

tranx · Dec 28, 2014

drewisfat said:
Transports are fine of course.... and subs are necessary to nuke everyone, but other than that navies make no sense in civ, which is kind of a break from reality obviously.

You don't get significant tile bonuses on defense with a navy, and so regardless if you fight naval battles you will take significant losses. There's no way to avoid this, and you will end up taking a loss ratio waaaaaay too close to 1:1
And what do you gain?? You can blockade them and pillage their fish, but this requires you to spread your navy across their entire coast -- all that time taking losses while they attack with 40% odds to kill your ships. You need navies for the turn you are either dropping off all your troops or the turn you are nuking them. That doesn't require ships like destroyers/battleships and it's a fundamental flaw of the game. On the higher levels you rarely can afford to just throw hammers away on those ships.

Here's what a navy is important for:

tranx · Dec 28, 2014

"In war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak." - Sun Tzu :

CaterpillarKing · Dec 29, 2014

I too find navies nearly useless. I just rush to build a defensive navy if someone is attacking me by sea.

drewisfat · Dec 29, 2014

Winning naval wars against an underteched AI without taking any cities?
I guess they were defensive wars? It's fine and dandy to build a few frigates (or unnecessary SoTLs) if the AI is only really fielding galleons, but that's not a normal situation if the AI is at a challenging level (or if playing on normal speed). And it's not a necessary one by any means. Has anyone ever been conquered across an ocean by an AI? Ever? No, the challenge is being able to make offensive gains across an ocean against an AI. And to do that you can either drop off some troops and build a big navy, or drop off twice as many troops.

tranx · Dec 29, 2014

I certainly don't play the most effectively: I find Kmod on Prince level to be challenging enough for my skills. Also I don't really like conquest, so yes I mostly fight defensive wars. You're probly right about navies, then. But sinking a whole bunch of loaded galleons or transports is always a great thrill, so I don't think I'll change anything soon

(except maybe building SotLs, why do you say they are unnecessary? They rule against frigates.)

Zacar · Dec 29, 2014

Probably because SotL tech is awful. Also, even on marathon I would assume it comes a bit too late. Pirates on the other hand are quite interesting, and good enough against an occasional Galleon blob. (I'm also K-mod prince)

Fippy · Dec 29, 2014

Depends..on water heavy maps, some superior ships can really ruin opponents

They are also fast in bombing down city defenses. And killing loads of weak enemy ships adds towards capitulations.
Since i refuse using nukes, they play a bigger role for me on those maps.
Drydocks in 1-2 cities also are like mini Heroic Epics for building them.

reddishrecue · Dec 29, 2014

That's one good thing about civilization is that its military doesn't specialize in only one terrain all the time and instead can be land, sea and air. Ships can be good for bombardment, landing stacks to conquer cities while bombarding with aerial units can cause damage.. However, AIs often can defend themselves the same way and often with more advanced units.

cseanny · Dec 30, 2014

- you don't need GPFs. 3 cities in a GA can starve out 3 great people in 13-14t (worst case)
- you don't need Shiny things. they cost big hammers and dilute your GPP.
- ORG is an amazing trait. haters are stupid

- mass upgrades is superior. my highest scores have been with 4-5 city Renais break-outs
- CRE is amazing (really it is so stfu thx ^)

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