Ask a Theologian IV

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Have you read John Boswell's somewhat-controversial work on this topic, and the subsequent responses? (I'm assuming that's what prompted this question.)

Please don't bring up filth.

No, that's not why, well actually it sort of is, I stumbled on to someone bashing Boswell and was intrigued by the insight that person had to offer

The Friend by Alan Bray should be arriving in the mail soon (unlike Boswell he was quite warmly received by historians) which will expand my knowledge on this topic
 
Have you read Richard Holloway's How to read the Bible? Is it recommendable? Is the author recommendable?

They're selling it at discount here, and I thought of buying.
 
The answer to the last one is that I haven't read it and I don't know about it, I'm afraid.

As for the others, I will get to them, but not for a little while, as I'm away for the next week. In the meantime be good!
 
I know I'm not Plot, not in any way an expert in Christian theology but this is fairly easy. Peter's name was also a byword for 'rock', so it is just another one of Jesus's metaphors. He builds his church upon a strong foundation: his followers.

I already know MY opinions (And if you want me to discuss them, we could do so in Ask an Evangelical.)

However, I'm not an expert either, and in that particular discussion, I was no more qualified than the person I was talking too. Plotinus is...
 
Well, I'm certainly not a theologian, but Jesus clearly says that Peter is the rock upon which he will build his church, so I'm not sure wherein lies the confusion.
 
Well, I'm certainly not a theologian, but Jesus clearly says that Peter is the rock upon which he will build his church, so I'm not sure wherein lies the confusion.

Well, Catholics extrapolate upon that doctrine to say that Peter is the head of the Church and via papal succession, the Pope is Peter's successor and so the head of the Church. Non-Catholic Christians, of course, disagree.
 
Well, that's perfectly logical to believe. What else could Jesus have meant?
 
I'm not Catholic for a good many reasons, chiefly because I wasn't raised as one. Logic is an aide to life, not the be-all and end-all, you know. :)
 
I'm not Catholic for a good many reasons, chiefly because I wasn't raised as one. Logic is an aide to life, not the be-all and end-all, you know. :)

Well, if Jesus did mean what Catholics think he meant (And I don't believe he did) there's no sensible option other than to be a Catholic. (Well, or not be Christian at all.)
And there is a little thing called conversion...
 
Personnally, the only ROCK that was not "prevailed" against by the gates of hell was Jesus the Christ, when He died and descended into hell and led free those who were held captive. He broke the chains of death. Even Peter himself said that Jesus was the chief cornerstone for the foundation of the church. History was rewritten so as to make people think that Peter was in Rome. It would seem to me that if the church were left to humans it would fail. Since it is based on God Himself in Christ Jesus, it will withstand anything that is brought against it.
 
Plotinus, have you covered the issue of what language the Four Gospels were originally written in? A classical scholar tells me that the consensus is that were originally written in Greek, but is this not somewhat problematic, given that there is no evidence that Jesus and his disciples spoke anything other than Aramaic? Surely it's more likely that the original reporting of Jesus' life and work and words would have been in the language used by Jesus and those who knew and heard him? Would this imply that there is an original document in Aramaic, on which the Gospels are based?
 
Plotinus, have you covered the issue of what language the Four Gospels were originally written in? A classical scholar tells me that the consensus is that were originally written in Greek, but is this not somewhat problematic, given that there is no evidence that Jesus and his disciples spoke anything other than Aramaic?

The Gospels weren't written by the Apostles.

As for a question: What would you infer from the fact that the Bible is full of God talking directly to people, and miracles being worked, and all sorts of other things which can only be described as divine intervention, yet such things seem almost completely absent from the last two thousand years?
 
The canonical gospels were originally written in Koine Greek, but that in no way implies that the Greek text was not written based on earlier oral or written Aramaic sources.

Although it is not a particularly popular theory among scholars now, many in antiquity claimed (as do a notable minority today) that the Aramaic Gospel of the Hebrews was the original Gospel of Matthew and that the better known version composed in Greek used it as its primary source. It is not however a direct translation, and definitely contains elements not taken from that source.
 
Well, I'm certainly not a theologian, but Jesus clearly says that Peter is the rock upon which he will build his church, so I'm not sure wherein lies the confusion.

Have you seen the place where Jesus spoke those words? It might be worthwhile looking at the place where Jesus spoke those words to see the point he was making. It is very fascinating to see the site and the history of the place.
 
Have you seen the place where Jesus spoke those words? It might be worthwhile looking at the place where Jesus spoke those words to see the point he was making. It is very fascinating to see the site and the history of the place.

He used Petra to refer to the foundation of his Church and Petros to refer to Peter...
 
Plotinus, I have a question, but it's more historical than theological -- still worth a shot, I guess. Is there anything you can tell me about the Christianization of the Anglo-Saxons? The impression that I've got is that it took place fairly rapidly once it began, was done largely for political reasons, and was probably heavily associated early on with a significant degree of syncretization between Germanic paganism and western Christianity. But that's all terribly generic -- is there anything that can't basically be gleaned by a fairly cursory reading of Bede? How did the Roman Catholic Church handle syncretization/minor "backsliding" in other formerly pagan areas?
I'm not going to try to answer this for Plotinus, since most of what I can speak to comes from Bede anyway. But most of the problems of syncretism came not from 'paganism', although Bede and other authors make the standard complaints about that. Several Anglo-Saxon kings, and even one notable queen apparently, were Bad, Bad Pagans even after the good missionaries from Canterbury came to spread the Truth and so Suffered Horribly. Surprise. What was more interesting was the clash between 'Roman' and Irish interpretations of Christianity. This manifested itself historically in the synod at Whitby in 664, one of the centerpieces of Bede, where the Northumbrian kings jettisoned Irish advisors and agreed to pay heed to Rome.

It's worth noting that 'paying heed to Rome' didn't mean the same thing in 664 that it did in 1664, obviously. Bede pushed the line of a papacy that rightfully dictates doctrine in the Ecclesiastical History, but back in the Mediterranean, nobody was even close to deciding that this was a good idea. After all, the RCC didn't exist yet in any meaningful sense.

Anyway, in the pages of Bede this Irish problem manifested itself over obviously silly minutiae like the style of tonsuring monks and the calculation of the exact date of Easter. What was more important to the dudes at Whitby was who held the reins in Northumbrian Christianity. When guys like Wilfrid got up to 'persuade' the Northumbrian king Oswiu (who had probably already made his decision, but whatever) of the rightness of the Roman cause, they didn't waste a whole lot of words talking about how important it was that Easter be celebrated on the correct day, that's for damn sure. Irish arguments focused on how they were basically there first, and had the older tradition of Christianity in Britain.

It's hard to guess at exactly why Oswiu sided with the 'Romans', although there are any number of possible reasons, like Roman Christianity being more prestigious, or the immense distance from the central religious authorities. Maybe he realized that the other side was, you know, the friggin' Irish. Who knows. Anyway, the whole "I love the Irish Christians for their piety and conversion efforts but they were WRONG WRONG WRONG" line of discussion runs through Bede more than whining about "backsliding" to paganism, and is arguably second only to the "I love Wilfrid for driving out the Irish but he was WRONG WRONG WRONG" line of discussion in terms of importance to Bede's work. :p
 
He used Petra to refer to the foundation of his Church and Petros to refer to Peter...

Have you had a look at the site where he said those words? It gives a far greater sense to what Jesus said to the disciples.
 
Anyway, in the pages of Bede this Irish problem manifested itself over obviously silly minutiae like the style of tonsuring monks and the calculation of the exact date of Easter.
Even in the 7th century, people hated defining Monastic vs. Diocese based Christianity. :p
Though the style of tonsuring monks isn't quite so silly when discussing synchretism.
 
The Gospels weren't written by the Apostles.

Thanks, Flying Pig, I'm well aware that the Gospels weren't written by the Apostles, and that the earliest surviving manuscripts of the Gospels are written in Greek. However, I also thought that those manuscripts date from several centuries after the Gospels were written, so that is quite weak evidence of what language the Gospels were originally written in, particuarly when an almost-contemporary writer, Eusebius, actually says that Matthew was written in Aramaic.

What I'm trying to get at is how close the Gospels can be to what happened in the first century AD. I've seen some writers claim that Jesus spoke Greek, presumably so as to bring the Gospels nearer to his actual words, but is this plausible? Why would a Galilean Jew, speaking to fellow Jews, have used any language other than Aramaic or Hebrew, even if he also knew some Greek?
 
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