Hunter/Gathering Nomadic start at Game Open project

Early people were grand explorers before really settling into routine hunter/gatherer cycles. How else did we cross the ice bridge from Asia to America or settle as far as Polynesia? Following migratory herds and in general seeking the best place to call a permanent home during times of great earth changes led us far and wide across the Earth. I don't think it would be a stretch from a historical perspective nor would it be bad for game play to start as a tribe that cannot yet settle until its collected enough knowledge to make it worthwhile for them to do so.
 
I can make it happen. As you may have noticed I haven't detailed my original ideas here yet. I wanted to wait until I was more 'ready' to work on this to really put forth a real proposal. I also wanted to check out AIAndy's methods first too.
 
Hydromancerx said:
Is that possible? Or would you need to give a free settler-like unit once you reached a specific tech? Much like you get a free gatherer from Gathering tech.
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Units can have properties. No reason we couldn't have a knowledge property on a unit. Could probably do I now without even writing any code in the DLL with a few Python routines to add to the property on whatever conditions should give knowledge to the unit, and enable settling when it has enough (actually I bet the expression system would let you do that declaratively)
 
Even with a simple method like that an ai would need to be defined and well developed for that unit specifically I think.

I'd prefer a little bit more structure than that though... buying techs and other units with missions, building a minor population into a critical 'settling' mass, planting new improvements with missions that leave the map and become buildings when your planted city's culture grows over them (like cave dwellings, berry bushes, etc...), collecting the standard map yields as you move across the map etc...
 
A number of the techs are designed around getting better return from yields.

BTW, I was just reading an article in "New Scientist" on why technology is lost and why it appears that innovation was slow in the prehistoric era.
 
Dancing Hoskuld said:
A number of the techs are designed around getting better return from yields.

BTW, I was just reading an article in "New Scientist" on why technology is lost and why it appears that innovation was slow in the prehistoric era.
Click to expand...

Well? What did it have to say on the subject then? :confused:
 
Thunderbrd said:
Even with a simple method like that an ai would need to be defined and well developed for that unit specifically I think.

I'd prefer a little bit more structure than that though... buying techs and other units with missions, building a minor population into a critical 'settling' mass, planting new improvements with missions that leave the map and become buildings when your planted city's culture grows over them (like cave dwellings, berry bushes, etc...), collecting the standard map yields as you move across the map etc...
Click to expand...
That is pretty much how I intended it and the tech demo shows that (for the very early start only and I am not sure if it is fully working any more).
There are four resources that you gather: Minor hunts, fruit, material (stone and the like) and lore. All of them are generated by plots (and gather on them with some decay so you get to an equilibrium after a while) and how much of each depends on the terrain and features. Lore generates the slowest and represents what knowledge you gather. With some food and a bit of time you turn it into beakers, which allow you to advance the tech tree as normal. Since the resources on a plot are finite and regenerate far slower than you gather them, you have to move around.
The resources are also used to buy units (and promotions are possible as well).
 
Thunderbrd said:
How much do you think it would take to update that demo? I'd really like to try it out but if its too outdated that could be tough.
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Just activate it and start a new game. Don't settle and use your band to explore instead.
If it works, then you will see.
Mind that there is very little content, it is only a tech demo.
 
Where can I find this demo?
 
Mouthwash said:
Where can I find this demo?
Click to expand...

In the Assets/Modules folder edit MLF_CIV4ModularLoadingControls.XML and turn NomadDemo on (change the 0 to a 1).

Thunderbrd said:
Dancing Hoskuld said:
....BTW, I was just reading an article in "New Scientist" on why technology is lost and why it appears that innovation was slow in the prehistoric era.
Click to expand...
Well? What did it have to say on the subject then? :confused:
Click to expand...

Sorry the phone rang distracting me. Basically it said in the early eras innovation was happening fast but it was being lost because the innovator would die before they managed to teach the next generation, so they were always "reinventing the wheel" so to speak. As ways of storing information and life expectancy improved other factors started to be more important like ".. but we always do it this way..", "you did what! You must be a witch!" and so on. Then there is always "do it this way - it costs too much if you make a mistake (innovate)".
 
AIAndy said:
Just activate it and start a new game. Don't settle and use your band to explore instead.
If it works, then you will see.
Mind that there is very little content, it is only a tech demo.
Click to expand...

Ok... I'll do that very soon. I've been wanting to for some time now. I just read through this entire thread and from what I can see, you did about 85% of what I would've suggested so I think your method there is on the right track entirely. What I would've done differently is pretty negligible and all I can say would differ now, conceptually, would be some added features and processes is all. You're method appears pretty spot on imo.

But I'll test it soon to see where we are because I think we just need to develop it out a little further and we'll have it. BTW, that modular game option issue we were discussing in another thread seems to be the kind of thing this would benefit from greatly too.
 
Thunderbrd said:
Ok... I'll do that very soon. I've been wanting to for some time now. I just read through this entire thread and from what I can see, you did about 85% of what I would've suggested so I think your method there is on the right track entirely. What I would've done differently is pretty negligible and all I can say would differ now, conceptually, would be some added features and processes is all. You're method appears pretty spot on imo.

But I'll test it soon to see where we are because I think we just need to develop it out a little further and we'll have it. BTW, that modular game option issue we were discussing in another thread seems to be the kind of thing this would benefit from greatly too.
Click to expand...
In regards to how the mechanics are implemented I guess we would need to implement a separate unit buying mechanic as the way it is done in the nomad demo would require a large amount of missions and outcomes that only duplicate information in the unit info.
So if we start implementing the nomadic start I'd add the possibility of defining a property cost and which unit combat type can spawn it to the unit info itself (and probably a condition that is evaluated on the unit).
 
AIAndy said:
In regards to how the mechanics are implemented I guess we would need to implement a separate unit buying mechanic as the way it is done in the nomad demo would require a large amount of missions and outcomes that only duplicate information in the unit info.
So if we start implementing the nomadic start I'd add the possibility of defining a property cost and which unit combat type can spawn it to the unit info itself (and probably a condition that is evaluated on the unit).
Click to expand...

So how long would that take, 2 -3 months ?? Longer??
 
AIAndy said:
In regards to how the mechanics are implemented I guess we would need to implement a separate unit buying mechanic as the way it is done in the nomad demo would require a large amount of missions and outcomes that only duplicate information in the unit info.
So if we start implementing the nomadic start I'd add the possibility of defining a property cost and which unit combat type can spawn it to the unit info itself (and probably a condition that is evaluated on the unit).
Click to expand...

I was thinking something similar for promotions if we go the building as promotion route. Especially if we have the temp settle until "all" the resource is used up
 
I had an idea for promotions as well here. Different kind though.

We have 2 kinds of special promos we should consider for this Band unit. Here's what I think would be an ideal scenario:
  1. Promotions that represent 'buildings'.
    • These would be earned through a generic mission that pulls up a popup page giving us our selections on which we can spend properties to purchase. The mission becomes available once we have enough properties to make any given purchase, but it may not always be the best idea to spend our properties on the cheapest thing we can immediately afford.
    • Once these promotions have been purchased, they stay on the unit representing any kind of building we currently have in the early stage of the game (and perhaps more still) that our people would be able to 'bring with them as they go'. So for example, Berry Bushes wouldn't fit here, nor would Cave Dwellings, but a Stick Gatherer or Healer's Hut or Hide Sack (to represent a Storage Pit once the city plops down) certainly would.
    • They benefit the unit itself via the promos and are programmed to change into buildings defined on a new tag for the promotion xml when the unit plants itself as a city. (This could lead us to have Settlers with combat strength and an interesting selection of promotions along similar lines eventually!)
  2. They'd also have the ability to access an Improvement mission that would operate much the same as the Building Promotions mission except that when an item is purchased, it immediately plops down an improvement where the unit is standing.
    • These improvements would become buildings in the city that extends its culture over the improvement. (they'd vanish as soon as this happens and become a building in the city immediately.)
    • Until then, they represent discoveries like berry bushes, and temporary habitations like caves.
    • These would be ways to begin planning for settling and would increase the yields in the area so that if you've figured out a nice profitable loop cycle you can start enhancing it to gain some momentum towards the settling event.
  3. And you'd also have Equipment promos. These would be immediately established as soon as you had a qualifying tech and were standing on a qualifying resource. Thus, part of the goal would be to FIND those resources in your travels. You may not even be able to SEE them on the map but take advantage of them and thus discover they are there with these equipments anyhow. For example, you have the tech required and step onto a stone resource and suddenly you've now got a Stone Weapons and Tools Equipment that helps your tribe overall and stays with them as long as they don't find better.

More to say here of course but I gotta run...
 
I like all of this discussion about the nomad start, and think it really could go somewhere, but we need to have a focus and a priority after the Freeze, and I think that should be Multi-Maps. We've been hyping them for almost a year, I think it's high time to add them. Nomads could then be added during the V29 cycle, in addition to content for the Galactic Era. How does that sound?
 
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