Acken's Minimalistic Balance for singleplayer (and AI improvements)

I've played five Peaceful games on Level 6 (Acken Immortal) in the past few hours, and found the same pattern every time.

AIs are making DoF then very soon after denouncing for no real reason at all, then chain DoWs around T60.

I had 2+ archers per city, so wasn't ignoring units by any means. Was set for a T80ish NC in most cases, trying to play peaceful.

But there's not much you can do against these hordes.

I have to say that my conclusion is that

a) this mod makes it much too hard to play peaceful at all optimally

and

b) this mod may make it much too hard overall, since my Domination sweeps on Level 6 also felt tougher than conventional Deity.

I think I'm gonna call it a day with Civ 5. My initial enthusiasm for this mod has kinda drained away. People could argue that I just need to relearn how to play, but I used up a lot of energy learning to win on Deity, and then learning to warmonger. I'm not sure I've anything left in the tank, and the bottom line is that ModAcken is much, much harder. I just don't have the energy or patience.

It's a great mod, though.
 
Try cleaning up your civ5. Delete mods, delete cache, unsubscribe, verify game cache, reinstall mods.

None of that worked. However I may have finally fixed it. I don't know if this is common knowledge or not but clicking Mods, checking mods relevant to my save, single player, load game, seems to have fixed it (I say seems because it seemed to be fixed before so I'll wait til I've been doing it for a while before I'm certain).

a) this mod makes it much too hard to play peaceful at all optimally

I think one of the goals of this mod is to remove "peaceful", which does make sense imo. I'm actually warring alot on a game I started tradition on, and taking cities.
 
great writers not giving 7 turns worth of culture.

currently i have 3 GWs i am producing 385 cpt ....all 3 writers provide different values for triesties...297 452 and 1093 respectively.

does their value depend on when they were spawned?

Yes the value is fixed at creation, there is no point in keeping a GW around (unless you want a great work of a specific era).

citadels giving 2 science?

Secularism gives 2 science to all GP improvements.

I've played five Peaceful games on Level 6 (Acken Immortal) in the past few hours, and found the same pattern every time.

AIs are making DoF then very soon after denouncing for no real reason at all, then chain DoWs around T60.

I had 2+ archers per city, so wasn't ignoring units by any means. Was set for a T80ish NC in most cases, trying to play peaceful.

But there's not much you can do against these hordes.

I have to say that my conclusion is that

a) this mod makes it much too hard to play peaceful at all optimally

and

b) this mod may make it much too hard overall, since my Domination sweeps on Level 6 also felt tougher than conventional Deity.

I think I'm gonna call it a day with Civ 5. My initial enthusiasm for this mod has kinda drained away. People could argue that I just need to relearn how to play, but I used up a lot of energy learning to win on Deity, and then learning to warmonger. I'm not sure I've anything left in the tank, and the bottom line is that ModAcken is much, much harder. I just don't have the energy or patience.

It's a great mod, though.

Ideally I will probably make them likely to keep their words and diminish the likelihood of backstabbing.

Also note that I don't have as much control over what happens in the Mac/Linux version as I don't spend as much time testing it. Having limited time I need write ups or videos to see what happens in that version.

Also note that this mod also purposely make conquest a mechanic for all victories, like culture being a part of domination. And that if someone is interested in playing optimally then sitting around on 4 cities is not optimal. This is by design. However is things are simply too hard it's a problem I'll look into. But it is my deep belief that people have been spoiled by a game being too easy in BNW so if the last 2 are really hard I don't have a problem with it... Civ4 immortal and deity were a tough challenge. Ideally I want players to just find the level they are comfortable with and have the most fun with and also give back the feeling of having to learn new difficulties and be happy with a win rather than "bah just another deity win who cares" :).
 
i agree with consentient that dom sweeps do take longer but i dont mind that.cities with walls castles ect are defenitely much tougher than ones without, something i find lacking in BNW.

this makes it all the more important to keep your military cutting edge and highly promoted as your window of opportunity for things like XBs and more specifically CBs is much smaller.in fact even the window for arties is smaller.

I have found that citadels planted right next to a city are preferable to simply keeping the GG for his bonus.
 
I might have missed it, but did you consider nerfing the food improvements (farms and internal trade routes) to make them more balanced vs other improvements (or buffing the other ones)?
 
Farms are rather balanced, if anything it would be Civil Sevice that isn't, but yes I've considered tweaking routes. There are some policies that already boost external ones to help with it.

But on the other hand wider games are less reliant on food and wider games have been buffed so I don't think it's a very pressing problem if any.
 
just finished up a T298 DipV with the shoshone.

i had an issue with some GS, I spawned one and purchased another with faith on the same turn.i got about 25% less beakers from the purchased GS 7300 vs 9700 from the spawned GS
 
just finished up a T298 DipV with the shoshone.

i had an issue with some GS, I spawned one and purchased another with faith on the same turn.i got about 25% less beakers from the purchased GS 7300 vs 9700 from the spawned GS

Ok thank you for noticing, normally spawned GS are giving more than they should. I'll fix the problem for the next version once I have found why.

Edit: Found why, fixed it (for next version). Basically when you spawn a GS the game looks at past data but when I fix the value for a natural GS it has not yet recorded the current turn so when adding for a turn, if that turn is not recorded, the game adds 3 times the current value of science. I have no idea why the devs put this 3 times multiplier, just adding the current science value for each missing turn sounds more logical. As a side note it should mean that if you were to actually spawn a gs on turn 0 the vanilla game will give you 22 (3*7 + 1) times the current value of science.
 
I've played five Peaceful games on Level 6 (Acken Immortal) in the past few hours, and found the same pattern every time.

AIs are making DoF then very soon after denouncing for no real reason at all, then chain DoWs around T60.

I had 2+ archers per city, so wasn't ignoring units by any means. Was set for a T80ish NC in most cases, trying to play peaceful.

But there's not much you can do against these hordes.

I have to say that my conclusion is that

a) this mod makes it much too hard to play peaceful at all optimally

and

b) this mod may make it much too hard overall, since my Domination sweeps on Level 6 also felt tougher than conventional Deity.

My experiences are somewhat different but as much as I've started new games they've always been full Liberty followed by something else, usually Honor and since that Theo's backstabbing haven't lost a city.

Few things & practises have changed quite a bit. Archers are useless, warriors are better & spearmen much, much better.
City locations are important again and mountain tiles are one's friends - anything to limit down the number of tiles which it can be attacked from. The old ranged firing line behind the city has lost most of its punch - a melee barricade in front of the city is far more useful.
Roads are extremely useful before they'll have a positive GPT effect. They cities fall so fast that there's no time for massive troop movement slowed by terrain.
Stealing workers from the closest neighbour is far from safest option - better steal from someone further away and be safe or postpone it altogether.
A caravan isn't an instant DoF so one needs to be more alert of all borders.
BUILD MORE (MELEE) UNITS - simple enough advice which is surprisingly hard to follow after years of neglecting them
Tech path changes to get the necessary military techs asap or close to that. Machinery before Education is recommended in many cases
AI in general expands faster than before so by time one gets out the 1st settler almost everyone else has 3 or more cities - AI very rarely sticks with two cities.

The threat lvl of few civs has been changed - anyone with an early mounted UU is deadly and Rome got a nice boost, too.

The overall difficulty lvl is higher but that surely was the point but I don't see it as drastic as Consentient does.
Can't really comment on the new Immortal as I abandoned right away as it felt just like the old one. DemiGod is certainly harder than Immortal but still easier than the std Deity - the 2nd starting city makes a huge difference and Deity surely is harder than in normal and due to the possibilities AI has there's a binary element of survival and it lasts much longer than in vanilla. By the time of CS the player has roughly adequate tools for defending but before that there's a fair chance losing all cities if AI so wishes.

CB rushes etc are much harder and it's highly recommended to team up with someone else against the target otherwise the likelihood of a stalemate is very high.

About the post Industrial game I can't say much as I've only played one game up to finish line. My Harun game will end in T260 or domination far from optimal play as I've been more keen on mechanics than the speed. Also the closest horse tile from capital was 19 tiles and only one CS, even further away, had any horses so my only supply was not so reliable Alex. Sure Harun is OP in every way but still the game wasn't hard by any means - just refreshingly scary in the early parts the closest neighbours being Attila & Suleiman both seldom serious contestants for peace prizes.

I think that some AI tuning especially in pre-T50 is needed to take away the on/off elements but at least there's a fair chance of losing a game again.
 
Dear Acken,

I have been commenting a lot on YouTube and was very excited about your mod. I have now finally finished a game with the 2.0 version (I think).

I will probably add screenshots later and do a more detailed analysis.

I've played five Peaceful games on Level 6 (Acken Immortal) in the past few hours, and found the same pattern every time.

AIs are making DoF then very soon after denouncing for no real reason at all, then chain DoWs around T60.

I had 2+ archers per city, so wasn't ignoring units by any means. Was set for a T80ish NC in most cases, trying to play peaceful.

But there's not much you can do against these hordes.

I have to say that my conclusion is that

a) this mod makes it much too hard to play peaceful at all optimally

and

b) this mod may make it much too hard overall, since my Domination sweeps on Level 6 also felt tougher than conventional Deity.

I think I'm gonna call it a day with Civ 5. My initial enthusiasm for this mod has kinda drained away. People could argue that I just need to relearn how to play, but I used up a lot of energy learning to win on Deity, and then learning to warmonger. I'm not sure I've anything left in the tank, and the bottom line is that ModAcken is much, much harder. I just don't have the energy or patience.

It's a great mod, though.

I incline to disagree. I started a game on Standard Pangea on Standard Speed with the Shoshone. The difficulty was DemiGod. My starting turf was great - coastal, a lot of river tiles, desert, just not a lot of production, but it wasn't going to be a problem. I popped an insane amount of ruins, it didn't stop until about turn 100. Opened Piety turn 4 with the idea of going wide with Jesuit Education. Things did not go as planned.

After taking the piety opener to secure Desert Folklore I went full liberty - a huge mistake on my part, even though it helped with early tile improving. I did not get first Pantheon, not second, not even third, and that's with starting Piety turn 4 and building Shrine as soon as it was available. The dirt for my next to cities was absolutely insane: food and production every way you look, my third city ended up having 30+ surplus food even in it 20's without a caravan. I met my neighbours - Shaka, Pacachuti, Genghis Khan, Hiawatha and Pedro. I was essentially stuck between four ravaging city spamming warmongers, my position was far from ideal for a peaceful game.

My religion did not end up being very good, my main focus was on Faith Production for Jesuit, though I was not sure if I was ever going to get it at that point. My science was pretty horrible early on, I built a ton of units, I was denounced thrice for no reason, everyone hated me. I advanced and took two cities from Pedro, several other civs went on to denounce me, too. Shaka declared on Pedro and wiped him out in literally less than ten turns. Pacachuti had found seven (!) cities at turn 60, only a few turns later he lost three of them to Hiawatha and barely managed to save his capital. At this point demographics say my general acceptance is 32%. A few turns later it is 0%. I was ready to lose - I beelined to Crossbows, I produced exclusively units in every city. I had self-founded four cities and taken two, making a total of seven. Around turn 110 Mongolia and the Inca declared war on me simultaneously. Keshik were floating in left and right. Because of the positioning of my cities it was really hard for him to advance, I dried him out of Keshik and took Hong Kong, liberated it because my smiles were down to zero. Pacachuti wanted white peace after I killed some of his units and Mongolia was feeding me experience, though if Shaka declared on me at any point he could've wiped me off the map. The same goes for Hiawatha. So I had to stay good with everyone, even though everyone hated me. I missed every single good belief and ended up getting Industrial Era Units with Faithbuys. Much worse than I expected. My cities were growing strong and I was facing happiness issues again, this time really struggling since there were few trades. At this point I was going for a spaceship victory since Shaka and Hiawatha had filled the entire map and I wasn't going to stand an assault from both sides. I focussed on science while still getting all the neccessary military techs, checking demography every turn to make sure I would not fall behind. Mongolia got killed down to once city, Austria ended up getting a few Zulu cities, Hiawatha annexed one or two cities. He would later on amass more than 3000 points which I really rarely have seen. I was always behind in science and the space race was a pretty horrible gamble. I got into Ideology really late and even though I had the biggest land at that time (a lot) there was zero coal. Bought a CS, picked Freedom which surprisingly wasn't taken and dropped another 20 smiles. It took me about ten turns to recover. My science was really good in the second half of the game, but I was really behind. Arts funding passed and even though I won the Worlds Fair I still wasn't catching up since I lacked Great Scientists. This game was all kinds of crazy. Granaries Turn 110, Libraries Turn 120. Everyone was spamming units, we were all really low in science in comparison to all my other games.

The ending was insanely close - I would've easily won about twenty turns earlier if it wasn't for arts funding and bad GS spawn times. Hiawatha beat me to Hubble, he finished most of his parts earlier, but thanks to two +170 production expansion cities I produced three parts and bought the rest with the Freedom tenet - I finished about two or three turns before Hiawatha was going to launch, I knew he had all the techs. The game ended turn 303, which is really, really late. Everyone's teching was so slowed down due to permanent war, I loved it. This was easily one of (if not the) most challenging game of Civ I have ever played, definitely harder than standard deity in my opinion. Thanks for the great experience.

I will comment about the mod itself in depth later.

just finished up a T298 DipV with the shoshone.

i had an issue with some GS, I spawned one and purchased another with faith on the same turn.i got about 25% less beakers from the purchased GS 7300 vs 9700 from the spawned GS

This happened to me, too.
 
Thanks for the report Yung.

The GS having different numbers for spawned vs faith bought will be fixed in next version. Note that the bug also affect Great Writers for the same underlying reasons. Naturally born GS and GW are in effect giving 9 turns of science and culture right now.
 
I am playing the Mac version so somethings, like negotiating peace, I see are not implemented (and probably cannot be). I was able to load strictly from the V main menu, so that was pretty neat.

I have only played one map (but a couple times) and my only comment is that city health recovery seems like it should have a small bump. Severely damaged cities will not be back to full health after the peace expires, so that has a good bit of player-exploit potential.
 
I am playing the Mac version so somethings, like negotiating peace, I see are not implemented (and probably cannot be). I was able to load strictly from the V main menu, so that was pretty neat.

I have only played one map (but a couple times) and my only comment is that city health recovery seems like it should have a small bump. Severely damaged cities will not be back to full health after the peace expires, so that has a good bit of player-exploit potential.

i agree,cities seem to be gaining back 7hp per turn.

I have also noticed since the update that it has become maddeningly frustrating trying to get out just one expo never mind two or three and thats on LV6 immortal.

I am constantly stuck with 5-6 other civs on the same landmass on continents

despite the AI not starting with an extra settler it still seems quite capable of getting its 3rd sometimes even 4th expo out by T30-35

Pedro (yes Pedro) had amassed an army of of 9 pikes and 8 Xbs and 4 swords by T60 in my last retired game.the same game where china seemed unwilling to to either expand or churn out any units.

All AIs seems to love to conquer CS early now too.It has become common place since i updated to see 1/3-1/2 of the city states on the map conquered by T100
 
I have only played two games (both the same map) but with my second time through the SP trees, I still very much disagree with Rationalism being locked up in the Industrial age.

From a historical perspective, this does not seem accurate. Was rationalism not a bit part of the renaissance? If Commerce (with Big Ben) is not Industrial, why is Rationalism (with its early renaissance wonder)?

From a game play perspective, it seems quite unbalanced. I have a bunch of picks between closing out my starter tree and unlocking ideologies -- which is actually quite nice as I filled out the whole Patronage tree -- but Rationalism really should have been an option for the last few.

I think most players aim to unlock Ideologies as soon as you hit the Industrial age. So that means from the start of the Industrial age there is maybe a dozen turns until Ideologies. (Either researching Electricity and Oxford Radio, or build three factories ASAP.) So that is only space for one pick in Rationalism. It is still a nice tree, but it really cannot compete with Ideology tenets -- and from a game design it should not.

In BNW you have four early trees, two in medieval (Patronage, Aesthetics), and three in Renaissance (Rationalism, Exploration, Commerce), and then the double-wide Ideology. So it is pretty well balanced. In actual play it is more like a choice of 4, then 5, then 3. With Rationalism being seen as OP, it is more like: a choice of 3, then a spare or two, then 1, then 3. With AMB it is a choice of 4, then 4, then 4. That looks okay, except that Rationalism cannot really compete with ideologies, so the choices end up being 4, then 4, then 3. The better design would be 4, then 5, then 3 -- what BWN aimed for.
 
I think that pushing Rationalism to Industrial might be an easy way to make the game harder, but if the original purpose was to balance the mod, I think it doesn't balance anything. I liked it the way it was, it could be taken or ignored. If I was playing semi-peaceful or needed to push ahead in tech, I could take it. Most of the time, with H-C-A, I would ignore it.

On the H-C-A games I've tried to play with the mod, I feel that come the Renaissance, I really need it to hold an edge, and I just don't have the choice any more.

I guess it's up to Acken to decide which is more important, overall balance or raw difficulty. ;)

@beetle: Commerce comes online @ Medieval in BNW.
 
...if the original purpose was to balance the mod, I think it doesn't balance anything. I liked it the way it was, it could be taken or ignored.

Yes, I agree. Even as OP as people say it is, ignoring Rationalism was viable. With the mod, I feel forced to neglect it. I do not care for that. But I have only tried two games on one map, opening Piety. I look forward to exploring more trees. A Tradition opener (which is will be after the other three, so Acken will be well into v.3 by then) might still work out to pair with Rationalism.

I guess it's up to Acken to decide which is more important, overall balance or raw difficulty.

Well, from the various threads, overall balance is the clearly the main driver -- with raw difficulty naturally increasing as various design deficits are corrected.

If Acken was content with just increasing raw difficulty -- for peaceful or warmongering or both -- the mod would be different!

Commerce comes online @ Medieval in BNW.

Crazy that I never noticed that poor design! Even more bizarre then that its wonder is not available until Industrial. Also, I misspoke about Exploration -- since it is available before Renaissance too.

Anyway, my main point is that (assuming a player works through their opening tree until it is finished) the SP come in batches. The net effect is that Patronage, Aesthetics, Commerce, Exploration all compete with each other. (And even Piety really, since it is too weak in standard BNW to be an opener.) This is good design.

Rationalism stands on it own, between the others and Ideology tenets. That helps promote interesting choices.
 
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