Panzers are just ridiculous

ztrapon · Nov 6, 2015

I tried a few starts in Industrial era, wanting to try to play an ordinary game using modern units.

I hadn't tried the Germans before, but they are extremely good in late-game. Assembly Plant is an amazing building, paired with Levee and Three Gorges dam most of my cities were spitting out units in 2-3 rounds.

Which brings me to Panzers. They don't have any counter, even anti-tanks are useless and obviously trying to match them with tanks is no point.
Even on higher difficulties, simply massing out Panzers was not only viable but absolutely unstoppable. I know they are basically an anti-tank tank, but that's what makes them so good - you don't need any other unit. It's basically the equivalent of a mounted praetorian.

Now, is this just some flaw in the game - the AI sucking at end-game warfare? What's supposed to counter Panzers before Gunships (even Modern Armor is basically on par with them)?
And does anyone else agree Germans are pretty damn amazing early late-game? :yumyum:

Windsor · Nov 6, 2015

Anti-tank works just as well against panzers as they do against regular tanks. But yes, the stock AI sucks at warfare and modern warfare is even worse for them.

Lexicus · Nov 6, 2015

The main reason the AI sucks even worse at modern warfare is that it has no idea how to leverage air power (Fighters promoted with Ambush will cut Panzers down to size nicely BTW).

Most players here will tell you the Panzer is one of the least useful UUs due to it coming in so late (though obviously if you're playing advanced start it's a very different game).

6K Man · Nov 6, 2015

The problem with the Panzer is that in single-player games, the AI doesn’t build enough Tanks for the Panzer’s special ability to be of much utility. Aside from the bonus vs Armor, everything you said applies to the generic Tank unit as well.

The only thing that slows Tanks down, really, is having to wait for artillery support.

Testhero · Nov 12, 2015

ztrapon said:
I tried a few starts in Industrial era, wanting to try to play an ordinary game using modern units.

I hadn't tried the Germans before, but they are extremely good in late-game. Assembly Plant is an amazing building, paired with Levee and Three Gorges dam most of my cities were spitting out units in 2-3 rounds.

Which brings me to Panzers. They don't have any counter, even anti-tanks are useless and obviously trying to match them with tanks is no point.
Even on higher difficulties, simply massing out Panzers was not only viable but absolutely unstoppable. I know they are basically an anti-tank tank, but that's what makes them so good - you don't need any other unit. It's basically the equivalent of a mounted praetorian.

Now, is this just some flaw in the game - the AI sucking at end-game warfare? What's supposed to counter Panzers before Gunships (even Modern Armor is basically on par with them)?
And does anyone else agree Germans are pretty damn amazing early late-game?

I love Bismarck for an OCC bee line to panzers and take on the whole world.
As 6Kman says the AI's never build enough tanks for a good stand up tank battle and seldom even promotes ambush.

I usually promote some as Tigers with Drill and combat, some as Panthers with mobility and lots as Stugs with Barrage and City Raider if any one gets to mobile infantry or modern Armour some tigers get promoted to Tiger II's with ambush.

Being Industrious lets you nab those warmonger wonders like the pentagon and the Kremlin

bhavv · Nov 12, 2015

I love the Assembly Plant combined with Mids & Hanging Gardens, optionally any more GE wonders.

Fred is also Phi / Org which fits perfectly for that, or Bismark also has solid traits too.

ringwraith18 · Nov 29, 2015

In my experience the AI is pretty bad at advanced starts more than late game warfare as such.

noto2 · Nov 30, 2015

panzers are one of the worst UU's in the game. 95% of games are decided well before tanks even show up, they come far too late to have any meaningful impact on the game. Because they come so late, you'd expect them to be ridiculously powerful, basically an auto-win, as they should be.

But, they aren't. 95% of the time the player is using tanks against the AI, they will be fighting infantry and anti-tank units. The panzer is 0% more effective against those units. The bonus vs enemy tanks is completely useless, irrelevant, and not even noticeable in 95% of games using them. Basically panzers actually impact the game in 5% of 5% of games playing as Germany, so they impact the game about 0.25% of the time. They are easily a contender for worst UU in the entire game.

If you start in the industrial or modern era, you can remove the first calculation, making panzers relevant in 5% of games...

Lennier · Nov 30, 2015

noto2, note that the OP was talking about industrial era starts.

Lexicus · Nov 30, 2015

Honestly, I can't relate to those who say the AI never builds tanks. The AI always seems to build a good number of them if the game goes on long enough.

I will say that the Panzer's bonus seems to be much more helpful on defense than in offense, in that its main uses (in my experience) are cleaning up tanks the AI is using to pillage, and in attacking the AI's stack at better odds (because in open terrain a tank is the only thing that can reliably beat another tank, assuming everyone's at full health). It is also marginally more useful as a stack defender than a regular tank as it beats attacking tanks easily where a regular tank might have trouble.

noto2 · Nov 30, 2015

Lennier said:
noto2, note that the OP was talking about industrial era starts.

I get that, but with the way combat works in civ4, a tank will very rarely fight another tank. The vast majority of tank battles will be between a tank and an infantry, or anti-tank soldier, or helicopter, or artillery....basically anything OTHER than another tank.

The panzer bonus is terrible.

Mizar · Dec 2, 2015

the Panzer was great in Civ3, now the bonus is almost never at work

elmurcis · Dec 4, 2015

If Panzer would have this bonus together with "will target Tank 1st in stack outside cities" (like Ballista Elephant), it would have some uses...

Testhero · Dec 5, 2015

elmurcis said:
If Panzer would have this bonus together with "will target Tank 1st in stack outside cities" (like Ballista Elephant), it would have some uses...

In a mixed stack the strongest defender outside of a city will almost always be a tank at 28 strength anyway... unless you make a habit of attacking entrenched marines or paratroopers in forests on hills (24+50%vanilla +75%BtS.)

But as the code is there anyway...

Lexicus promoting fighters with ambush to kill tanks is a hell of a luxury. As aerial units are the hardest to get xp with and most will be promoted to interception for defense or range for a decent attack envelope, that or working towards Ace and as they will only be strength 15 anyway

Panzers are just ridiculous

ztrapon

Chieftain

Windsor

Flawless

Lexicus

Deity

6K Man

Bureaucrat

Testhero

Warlord

bhavv

Glorious World Dictator

ringwraith18

Chieftain

noto2

Emperor

Lennier

Emperor

Lexicus

Deity

noto2

Emperor

Mizar

IM

elmurcis

Emperor

Testhero

Warlord

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