Screaming Orange Pumpkins - RR16B - It's tax day again ...

Pre-plan
Short set to settler is finished.
Research path is bronze working to masonry.
Explore the rest of close gold, and cow / clam area.
 
we need better vision at the flood plains west from capital (could be something like 6 flood plains clear future bureau cap). there could be hidden some rice on border of flood plains.

I understand of L's intent to share the corn with city 2 and gold, but I would have liked to move it into those flood plains, to block a bit willy

that pigs+2x ivory+gems site really interests me maybe for city 3.

that gold south east is meh
 
lymond, great catch with the culture map mode showing Willie's borders. I normally just look for border edges in the fog, and apparently that culture mode can catch it in the off corner so certainly something I would have missed.

I'm with vranasm, would like to settle straight west for a better block if we find any other food in reach of the gold, then we could work the SE gold with the capital shared corn. (maybe there is a seafood there). LK's plans sound good.
 
Granted, showing of strats can change our plans, but I'm more for a compact empire to start. There's several benefits. First, it keeps maintenance under control early which is important. Second it means faster production. Third, it allows us to breeze through the stuff we can actually tech much faster so that we can start gold generation. Lastly, getting that gold online asap is huge...I don't need to explain that more.

I understand the desire to block, but I'd rather expand more progressively and judicially. Let Willie settle wherever he wants, we are just going to take his cities from him soon anyway.

On another note, I really want to decide on a team name. I keep wanting to click on Team A. We can just call ourselves The Sausages.
 
Summary:
This is our "wonderful" land up north.



- 100% cash after getting these techs: Fishing, Agri, Wheel, Hunting, Mining, Myst, AH, BW, Masonry, Pottery
- No Rep civic before Constitution
- No research build

Roster:
lymond
LKendter
timmy827 (up)
vranasm (on deck)
pigswill
vanatteveldt
 
Good...we show copper....and Willie's cap looks like something we should take soon.

Not sure why you moved our spawnbusting warrior. Now we have nothing to protect our settler to settle the gold. I left it there for a reason
 
didn't check save and the SS doesn't show where is the copper, but "oh crap" are the only words coming to mind looking at it.

If we have copper, we kill Willem, the only worrying thing here is the lack of 3rd AI.

Will have to check the save to make my mind how to settle city 2
 
Now we have nothing to protect our settler to settle the gold. I left it there for a reason
Your gold warrior had ZERO food! No way I agree to settler where warrior was sitting.
 
If we're planning on Kill Bill then second city should be production based not commerce based, Amsterdam has double gold. Maybe on plains hill north west of capital, can borrow capital's corn for initial growth until AH for plain cows.

It would be annoying if we were on an island with only two neighbours. Our early vultures can explore further and if we get Gwall then GSpy will be useful as pre-alphabet scout.
 
hmm finally got to open the save... and haha...we have got copper in capital directly...

there is willem settler party 1n of gold and I would put my bets he goes somewhere towards that deer+marble area

city 2 1 NE from the western gold was original plan and looks still on the table.

not sure if we should build warrior or vulture in capital now and honestly absolutely no clue how to proceed with this map right now.

A bit shame we didn't discuss Iron working out in the rules as tech available for full research since it allows clearing jungle.

That pigs+ivory area looks best as city 3 still.

would like to make something with those wines+plains cow and some flood plains area north west from cap.
 
Your gold warrior had ZERO food! No way I agree to settler where warrior was sitting.

That was not where I suggested settling, LK. He was spawnbusting. I had a dotmap on the plains hill sw of cap for a city to work gold and share corn, which I've already mentioned. This is where I think we should settle. Converging our warriors like that is not good. Our optimal settling site is unprotected and we have no warriors.

Forget settling NW with the Dutch settler there. Gold/Corn is immediately productive based on existing techs. Let Dutch settle the NW crap which we will just take from him.

I agree that city 3 should be pig/ivory/gems, if we can beat Rag to it.

I expect Willie will settle right where that Blue Circle is, that what AI always does unless you have a settler approaching. If we try beating him there, which is not a good idea any way you look at it, he will settle on the desert hill to beat us.
 
i wasnt thinking about doing that site now...but if we could beat willie with city 4 for the wine+plains cows area it would be neat, but don't expect that.

I think we can plan classic axe rush now after thinking a bit about it and taking the capital of dutches which will be surely absolutely terrific and leave willie with his new crap city.
something like 6 vultures should suffice.
I would even abandon pigs+ivory in advance of going for willies capital...he is SO CLOSE.

we should leave him a bit to expand then though. to extort techs later.

I would imagine attack date around T70. Willie sometimes goes directly for alpha, but we will see.
 
Here's a screenshot of my proposed settling pattern...and I attached a save so you can see the signs better:

Spoiler :



City for is probably backfill and contingent on possibly finding bettter sites. I figure we will go into war mode with 2 cities.

Gold city can work corn until it grows onto mined gold. It can get a grass mine and be produce Vultures immediately. We have plenty of forests to chop a V army.

I suggest that the worker switch to chop mode now to chop out a second worker and then move to road to the new city. We will want the extra worker for chops. Finish the warrior first to grow onto copper and since we need him badly.

Problem is that we have no protection for our settler as I planned.'

City X is marked as a possible future cap site, unless Amsterdam is better, assuming we raze the new Dutch city.


I've having reservations about bothering with GW without stone and Bill so close. I would like to try for Mids later possibly. I think Pottery may be of more value now for granaries.
 

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as I see it...

size 3 worker or size 2 now? it's 2 turns to grow, the worker started the mine so it's 7 turns

raxes? yes/no

would have liked that pig city 1SW but won't be angry about the placement on ivory

don't forget we should preroad along the flood plains river and need to finish roads to city 2

unless barb animal barbs should be low concern since they can't enter borders unless improvement on tile in border

granaries will be just bad distraction now, but eventually great of course.

The preparation will probably be need to be done in timmy's and mine TS... btw would be nice to hear more from timmy! he's too silent for him being up.
 
definitely, size 3 worker....should time perfectly with chopped forest in 3 turns. (the turns we put into the mine are not wasted by the way, but the faster chop is more valuable)

Why pig city 1SW? seems odd. On ivory is closer and all land.

hmmmm...grans could be delayed since we have forest to chop. Was thinking whipping, but then we'd have to whip the grans as well. I still think Pot is a good next tech. Well, maybe Fish first for the bonus on POT, the extra food would be nice. I still have to get my head around our tech limitations. Since we can only tech workers techs, we might as well make the most of them. I would have gone Myst before Masonry, but that suggestion was ignored.

I don't follow your mention of barb animals

I envision us taking Dutch new city and razing it, then Amsterdam. Willie will likely have a 3rd city by then which is good. Let him build another one as well and then declare gain later to extort techs, but which time he will have alpha.

ha...give timmy some time

edit: I like your road plan. Once the second worker pops, the workers can tag team gold, road it, move to grass hill, mine and road it, and then 1 can continue road along flood plains as second moves to start chopping. cities will be building Vultures at this point, but it will take some time to get a sizable force.
 
panther has 2 moves so he can hit you out of fog.

complication being our settler will go into hills, luckilly we won't travel too far and only dangerous tile we have no vision is gold hill

Barb warriors/archers should not enter city once we settle it since limits didn't kick in yet. done something very similar in one of immortal games and was burned to hell by obsolete for settling city 2 with barb warrior 2 tiles from borders, but was somewhat safe

did some calcs now

if we move the west warrior (not sure with moves now if he can move this turn or not) he needs 3 turns. Our settler needs 2 turns to border, 3rd turn he enters city tile, but the same turn the scouting warrior should open the gold tile for vision.

So i think settling city 2 will be safe in the end if we can move the warrior this turn.
 
@Lymond - I see how I missed the dot plan. Your screen snap shots are FAR too wide for the laptop I am on. I stopped opening your spoiler tags and missed it. If you want my comments, you need to scale down the screen prints. Sorry, but this laptop screen is TO small.


Before I even start to comment on the dot map, I have to say this is the CRAPPIEST food start I have seen in ages.
If this was a solo for fun game I would hit the restart button.

I still hate the gold area. A single food for city 2 is horrible. I really don't understand the gold obsession. I know it is good for tech help early on, but the potential of this city is pretty weak long-term and it has to permanently steal the corn from our food light capitol. Can we move it 1 north? That will at least let us farm the flood plain for more food.

Can we move city #3 one south? Post calendar that banana tile will really help the food situation.

I would like to shelve the discussion on city #4 for now. Let us see what opens up from the Dutch lands. I would prefer to avoid a second city that steals tiles from our capitol.

Unless the Dutch capitol rocks I don't see bureaucracy as a govt.


The southern warrior can move this turn. He didn't move trying to recover from bear attack.

After RR15 I was hoping not to have another early rush game, but I have to agree we need it this game. We are even more boxed in that RR15 IMO.
 
Good to get some discourse from you LK...you always seem kinda terse

Your screen snap shots are FAR too wide for the laptop I am on. I stopped opening your spoiler tags and missed it

Well, say something, man ;)...easily done. Now I know why you never respond to anything I say.

How is this size - there are other sizes:


Spoiler :


Imgur does not do a good job with resizing, so I will switch back to Imageshack which does it on upload. (by the way, I'm on a laptop too...ha) I agree that those pics are pretty large, but no one's complained.


The south is pretty meager for food, but there are some reasonable spots nearby. This map is not that bad and at least we have copper. I expect Amsterdam will be decent.

Actually, on second thought, a city on that desert hill where the hurt warrior is might make a decent bureau cap. Bureau would be good for this game if we can find the right spot.

I really don't understand the gold obsession.

Because it is about winning. You should ask someone like Kossin, who would settle that gold no question. The important thing is the "now". (I'm fine with the corn share. Ur has plenty of plenty of food for a good portion of the game we hope to play - a short one. ;)

City 2 1N and City 3 1S would work fine I think. Doesn't create a seal, but that may not be an issue. There's a possibility we may not get City 3 by peaceful expansion anyway.


edit: This is an Imageshack version of the same pick resized. Seems much better
Spoiler :


Uploaded with ImageShack.us
 
You should ask someone like Kossin, who would settle that gold no question.
The name means absolutely nothing to me, so a little hard to ask him.


The image shack picture mostly works. ;)
Trouble is this laptop is only 1366 wide, even that one if a bit large. I know, this laptop sucks. If I could go back in time I would get a larger screen.


I'm not concerned with a seal for city #2 and #3. I'm trying to get the most I can out of this map. IMO the farmed flood plain makes gold city a lot easier to take for me. I almost never settle city #2 on a single food location.
It is awful early to guess this can be a short game, especially with the variant.
How about other continent needed long distance shipping tech for example, to long to make contact and WAY behind in tech when we finally find them.
This variant does really up the risk of hopeless behind in tech.


The main factor why I am not choking more on gold this game is the fact we need ASAP rush, and gold will help with that.
 
the point of city 2 is immediate production and that is best achieved with overlapping food with capital after capital doesn't need it.
Plenty of deity players do this. Almost every AZ video has it in some way.

Capital will have clams which are 5 food tile, corn 5 food (eventually 6) and grass farm around lake immediately and eventually can spread more irigation after CS

If you move gold 1N you steal 1 fp from future bureau cap and that's just bad

My concern about city 3 is absolutely 0 right now, since axe rush is never done with 3 cities and I will think about more cities once we hit Willie's capital and the situation can be completely other way.

Important thing that wasn't answered (not sure why) is if

1) we will build barracks and how many
2) we finish the warrior in cap

To me best course of action is

1) build barracks in capital, city 2 won't build barracks, but drawing that road towards city 2 has bigger prio then to start on the vultures right away instead of warrior

2) i would finish the warrior in cap

Problem with capital is once we share the food with city 2 we don't have enough good tiles for size 3 worker, almost feels like we could stay size 2, work 5F corn, copper and build worker-worker, where first worker connects city 2 and builds gold mine.

TECH PATH!!!

Fishing->pottery heard good from L's suggestion

L's reports

I too find the size of screenshots disturbing, would prefer if you scale it to 1024p wide to avoid horizontal scrolling
 
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