Anti-air

Browd · Mar 15, 2016

gobbledydook said:
I was more thinking using AA as an overpriced infantry.

They (particularly Mobile SAMs) are stunningly (unrealistically) robust as melee units. Compare Mobile SAM's 65 combat strength with Infantry (70 CS) and the Mobile SAM's Atomic Era compadres - Tank (70 CS), Marines (65 CS), Paratroopers (65 CS). Even the AA units are surprisingly strong (50 CS), compared to their same-era counterparts - Foreign Legion (42 CS) and GW Infantry (50 CS) -- although they are stomped by regular Infantry (70 CS).

They really should have made AA and Mobile SAM's incapable of attacking (with their combat strength only used for defense).

Shark Diver · Mar 15, 2016

yung.carl.jung said:
additionally medic AA Guns also heal bombers in a city if they are adjacent

I did not know this.

I've generally paired my AA guns with Arties and Fighters with Bombers (I tend to split my forces), but this is a nice little perq that I'll try to employ.

Shark Diver · Mar 15, 2016

Browd said:
They really should have made AA and Mobile SAM's incapable of attacking (with their combat strength only used for defense).

Is it just me or does the AI seem to target AA guns with their melee attacks over units like Infantry?

But please don't ask for a nerf on AA's until they actually make the attack helicopter somewhat useful. Or does someone know a useful way to employ the stupid Lancer "upgrade"? Right now, they pretty much function as scouts for me.

Wild_Woojsha · Mar 15, 2016

Shark Diver said:
Is it just me or does the AI seem to target AA guns with their melee attacks over units like Infantry?

But please don't ask for a nerf on AA's until they actually make the attack helicopter somewhat useful. Or does someone know a useful way to employ the stupid Lancer "upgrade"? Right now, they pretty much function as scouts for me.

They can fly over mountains right, when is that not useful??? :mischief:

(We really need a just trollin' smiley here...)

zxcvbob · Mar 15, 2016

yung.carl.jung said:
additionally medic AA Guns also heal bombers in a city if they are adjacent

I've wondered about this, but never seen it work. They need to be next to the city and not garrisoned in it? (what about if they have Medic II?)

ShakaKhan · Mar 15, 2016

Browd said:
They really should have made AA and Mobile SAM's incapable of attacking (with their combat strength only used for defense).

This may cause one problem: I've noticed that if you have the technology for an anti-air unit AND you've made a militaristic CS's UU obsolete, the city-state will default in making anti-air units for you. Maybe it's just coincidence, but this trend seems to happen very, very frequently in my games.

Browd · Mar 15, 2016

zxcvbob said:
I've wondered about this, but never seen it work. They need to be next to the city and not garrisoned in it? (what about if they have Medic II?)

Yes, the Medic or Medic II unit (irrelevant whether it's an AA/SAM or some other unit with Medic or Medic II promotions) must be in a tile adjacent to the one with units you want healed. Anywhere else on the map, 1 UPT makes this a non-issue -- the medic promoted unit sits alone in one tile, and units in the 6 adjacent tiles get the healing benefit. But, when you station planes (or a ship) in a city and put the Medic unit in the city, it doesn't heal the planes or ship, because they are not in an adjacent tile -- the medic will still heal units in the 6 tiles adjacent to the city, but not the units (planes or ship) sitting in the city with the medic unit. Solution: Park the Medic unit outside the city.

If I had to guess, the Medic promotion was designed this way to prevent a Medic unit from healing itself (Medic II does provide its own self-healing bonus outside friendly territory -- again, presumably this is intended to avoid stack healing bonuses).

Also, don't bother putting multiple Medic units next to a city -- healing units can only benefit from one Medic promotion and one Medic II promotion per turn.

Shark Diver · Mar 15, 2016

Wild_Woojsha said:
They can fly over mountains right, when is that not useful??? (We really need a just trollin' smiley here...)

Agreed. How else are you going to grab that goodie hut surrounded by mountains that's been mocking you for 5700 years?

If anyone remembers Civ 2, there wasn't a limit on how many times a unit could be upgraded by goodie huts. I once got a triple upgraded starting Warrior who turned into a Samurai way before they were available. Those Samurai got 2 attacks and this unit cleared half the map by himself before the AI caught up in tech.

zxcvbob · Mar 15, 2016

Browd said:
Yes, the Medic or Medic II unit (irrelevant whether it's an AA/SAM or some other unit with Medic or Medic II promotions) must be in a tile adjacent to the one with units you want healed. Anywhere else on the map, 1 UPT makes this a non-issue -- the medic promoted unit sits alone in one tile, and units in the 6 adjacent tiles get the healing benefit. But, when you station planes (or a ship) in a city and put the Medic unit in the city, it doesn't heal the planes or ship, because they are not in an adjacent tile -- the medic will still heal units in the 6 tiles adjacent to the city, but not the units (planes or ship) sitting in the city with the medic unit. Solution: Park the Medic unit outside the city.

If I had to guess, the Medic promotion was designed this way to prevent a Medic unit from healing itself (Medic II does provide its own self-healing bonus outside friendly territory -- again, presumably this is intended to avoid stack healing bonuses).

Also, don't bother putting multiple Medic units next to a city -- healing units can only benefit from one Medic promotion and one Medic II promotion per turn.

I bought a Landsknecht in my Brandenberg Gate city recently and gave him Medic II then fortified him next to a city near the front line so when my paratroopers or tanks were almost dead they could rush back there to be the city garrison for just a turn or two and be back at full health. Eventually I upgraded him to an anti-tank gun (not just a lancer because they can't fortify), but his main job was medic. I didn't notice if my bomber there was healing unusually fast. I probably should've had all my bombers based there, or had a medic at every city.

Browd · Mar 15, 2016

Well, Medic and Medic II only provide a healing bonus when a unit is otherwise healing. Like any other unit, the bomber would not have healed on any turn when it took any action, unless the bomber had the Air Repair promotion (the air equivalent of March).

zxcvbob · Mar 16, 2016

All my bombers get Air Repair as their 3rd promotion, and I because I had Total War (and Brandenburg) all of them started with 3 promos.

BTW, I just found out that when a fighter is on intercept mode, it heals if it doesn't do anything that turn. Been playing for several years and didn't know that.

I'm training a lot more medics in my current game.

beetle · Mar 16, 2016

Browd said:
If I had to guess, the Medic promotion was designed this way to prevent a Medic unit from healing itself

Interesting conjecture, I had assumed it was bug. It makes little sense intuitively that a Medic in a city would not heal planes, but a Medic next to a city does!

Does a civilian unit stacked with a medic only heal at the normal rate?

yung.carl.jung · Mar 16, 2016

zxcvbob said:
BTW, I just found out that when a fighter is on intercept mode, it heals if it doesn't do anything that turn. Been playing for several years and didn't know that.

I'm not 100% sure on this so plaese correct me if I am wrong, just one small addition.

Since Triplanes only have 50% Interception the Intercept will fail half the time, however if that is the case the Triplanes will not heal since technically an action was performed (and failed).

Does anybody have info on this?

Wild_Woojsha · Mar 16, 2016

Shark Diver said:
Agreed. How else are you going to grab that goodie hut surrounded by mountains that's been mocking you for 5700 years?

If anyone remembers Civ 2, there wasn't a limit on how many times a unit could be upgraded by goodie huts. I once got a triple upgraded starting Warrior who turned into a Samurai way before they were available. Those Samurai got 2 attacks and this unit cleared half the map by himself before the AI caught up in tech.

I remember in CIV 2 how the choppers would die a little every turn they were outside of a city/air-base, and how I lost many choppers trying to get them home again after flying them around the world. I'm about to boot up CIV 2 again and learn how to play it right, there really should be a proper phone version of that game...

zxcvbob · Mar 16, 2016

Shark Diver said:
If anyone remembers Civ 2, there wasn't a limit on how many times a unit could be upgraded by goodie huts. I once got a triple upgraded starting Warrior who turned into a Samurai way before they were available. Those Samurai got 2 attacks and this unit cleared half the map by himself before the AI caught up in tech.

As bad as lancers are (they have a place tho', especially for Mongolia) finding a goody hut with a pike right after you discover Civil Service and getting an upgrade is ridiculous. It's an extremely powerful unit to get that early, as long as you have a horse for it.

yung.carl.jung · Mar 16, 2016

this has never happened to me, not even once. I haven't even gotten a Spearman upgraded with a ruin. I guess any unit can be powerful if you receive them 1 era before they're supposed to be there.

Shark Diver · Mar 16, 2016

yung.carl.jung said:
this has never happened to me, not even once. I haven't even gotten a Spearman upgraded with a ruin. I guess any unit can be powerful if you receive them 1 era before they're supposed to be there.

Might have something to do with the fact that goodie huts are usually gone by this time? Of course there are the occasional island exceptions, but how often do you sent a pikeman halfway around the world hoping that A) The hut will still be there, and B) It will be a unit upgrade instead of a now-useless +30 culture?

zxcvbob · Mar 16, 2016

Shark Diver said:
Might have something to do with the fact that goodie huts are usually gone by this time? Of course there are the occasional island exceptions, but how often do you sent a pikeman halfway around the world hoping that A) The hut will still be there, and B) It will be a unit upgrade instead of a now-useless +30 culture?

I've only had it happen once in a Prince or King level game. I've also had some kind of unit (probably a handaxe) upgrade to knight when I didn't have any horses and there were none to be had. I was not happy about that one.

Browd · Mar 16, 2016

I find it happens most often to me when I have a Spanish conquistador exploring the other hemisphere in a Terra map (the other hemisphere is often unexplored and populated entirely by out-of-control barbs and beleagered CSs, so ruins are usually intact). Having a conquistador (with which I may have been planning on settling a new city) get insta-promoted to cavalry is particularly irksome.

Shark Diver · Mar 16, 2016

Browd said:
I find it happens most often to me when I have a Spanish conquistador exploring the other hemisphere in a Terra map (the other hemisphere is often unexplored and populated entirely by out-of-control barbs and beleagered CSs, so ruins are usually intact). Having a conquistador (with which I may have been planning on settling a new city) get insta-promoted to cavalry is particularly irksome.

The flip side of that tragic scenario is on a Terra map when you can send a couple of scouts over and clear the whole continent after they've taught themselves to shoot.

If anyone recalls the Polynesian game from last year's DCL (epic map), I got a Scout/Archer over to the far continent pretty early and still never cleared all of the barbs over there (at least not until the AI eventually spammed cities everywhere I hadn't claimed.

Anti-air

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