Northstar1989
Warlord
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2013
- Messages
- 116
This started off as a reply to a post about the new "Athenian" C2C culture currently under development in another thread of mine, but ended up growing until I felt it deserved its own thread...
So first of all, let me start off with an article about the Macedonian-style phalanx (what I have always assumed the "Phalanx" unit to represent).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_phalanx
Never mind what the Wikipedia article says- the Macedonian Phalanx was actually somewhat more vulnerable to ranged troops than the Greek Hoplite, due to their comparatively light armor (although this did enable the troops greater mobility like the Wikipedia articles says- comparatively heavy infantry like phalangites were almost never used to chase off archers, and were never very good at doing so. Light cavalry and skirmishers functioned in this role, and were much better at it...)
Now, the new "Athenian" culture would have the "Thorax Hoplite" as its unique unit (currently already completed as far as I can tell, and entered in the Civilopedia- but the Athenian culture itself cannot currently be built)
The name "Thorax Hoplite" seems to suggest *HOPLITE* equipment and tactics (rather than Macedonian-style Phalanx equipment and tactics), which were VERY different than those of the Macedonian-style phalanx, despite some superficial similarities in appearance and equipment (Hoplites wore MUCH heavier armor, and carried much shorter pikes. They closed into much tighter combat, and attempted to break their enemy by shear shock and mass rather than holding them at a distance with the phalangites' much longer pikes and often waiting on cavalry to finish the job...) Therefore, it should have a bonus against melee units (the formation was designed to crush enemy infantry), as well as a higher base strength (to reflect their extremely heavy armor- which provided some of the best protection in the ancient world against missiles like arrows- the heavy bronze armor worn by the better Hoplites was unmatched in its protection even by the later Roman legionaries- who tended to rely on much thinner and lighter iron).
Here is a rough list of the various Greek-world military units, as well as several competing units for comparison; when running both combat options (Size Matters, and the other one). I suggest a number of changes to improve balance and realism, and then explain them further below:
CURRENTLY:
Copper Age units:
Archers: 4 strength (archers), 1 first strike, +25% hills defense, +50% city defense
Early Chariot: 4 strength (mounted, wheeled), 2 movement points, +75% bonus vs. melee units, -50% forest/jungle attack, can withdraw (25% chance, standard HP-trigger)
Chariot Archer: 4 strength (mounted, wheeled), 2 movement points, +100% vs. melee units, 1 first strike, -50% forest/jungle attack, can withdraw (25% chance, starts at 30% HP)
Spearmen: 5 strength (melee), +50% bonus vs. mounted units. +50% bonus vs. *wild* animals (only useful for hunting)
Javelineers: 5 strength (throwing), 0-2 first strikes, +10% city strength (effects both attack/defense), +50% vs. archer units, +25% vs. mounted units, +25% vs. animals (helps vs. wardogs and similar units), can withdraw (12% chance, starts at 50% HP), causes collateral damage (12% chance, 1 unit)
Horsemen: 6 strength (mounted), 2 movement points, +25% combat bonus attacking grassland/plains/desert, -25% combat penalty attacking forest/jungle/swamp, 0-1 first strikes, can withdraw (30% chance)
Bronze Age units:
Thorax Hoplite (Athenian UU): 5 strength (melee), +50% bonus vs. mounted units, free "Formation" promotion (+20% bonus vs. mounted units)
Axeman: 5 strength (melee), +50% bonus vs. melee units
Chariot: 6 strength (mounted, wheeled), 2 movement points, +75% bonus vs. melee units, -50% forest/jungle attack, can withdraw (25% chance, starts at 10% HP)
Hittite Chariot (Hittite UU): 4 strength (mounted, wheeled), 2 movement points, +100% bonus vs. melee units, -50% jungle attack, -25% forest attack, can withdraw (25% chance, starts at 10% HP), immune to first strikes
Composite Bowmen: 5 strength (archers), 1 first strike, +25% hills bonus, +50% city bonus
Phalanx (Greek UU): 5 strength (melee), +50% bonus vs. melee units, +100% combat bonus vs. Chariot (only helps against "Chariot" unit- not "Early Chariot" or "Chariot Archer")
Xifos (Minoan UU): 8 strength (melee), 20% bonus attacking cities
Iron Age units:
Light Swordsmen: 7 strength (melee), 20% bonus attacking cities
Spartan Warriors (Spartan UU): 7 strength (melee, throwing), 20% bonus attacking cities, free "Heroic" promotion (+20% strength, +20% bonus attacking/defending cities)
Praetorians (Roman UU): 8 strength (melee) ; +20% city attack; free Loyalty, March, Tactics promotions
I suggest some changes to be better-balanced, and more in line with their historical counterparts. Changes are in bold:
SUGGESTED:
Copper age units:
Archers: 4 strength (archers), 1 first strike, +25% hills defense, +50% city defense
Early Chariot: 4 strength (mounted, wheeled), 2 movement points, +75% bonus vs. melee units, -50% forest/jungle/swamp attack, can withdraw (25% chance, standard HP-trigger)
Chariot Archer: 4 strength (mounted, wheeled), 2 movement points, +100% vs. melee units, 1 first strike, -50% forest/jungle/swamp attack, can withdraw (25% chance, starts at 30% HP)
Spearmen: 5 strength (melee), +50% bonus vs. mounted units. +50% bonus vs. *wild* animals (only useful for hunting)
Javelineers: 5 strength (throwing), 0-2 first strikes, +10% city strength (effects both attack/defense), +50% vs. archer units, +25% vs. mounted units, +25% vs. animals (helps vs. wardogs and similar units), can withdraw (12% chance, starts at 50% HP), causes collateral damage (12% chance, 1 unit)
Horsemen: 6 strength (mounted), 2 movement points, +25% combat bonus attacking grassland/plains/desert, -25% combat penalty attacking forest/jungle/swamp, 0-1 first strikes, can withdraw (30% chance)
Bronze Age units:
Thorax Hoplite (Athenian UU): 6 strength (as they wore very heavy armor),+30% bonus vs. melee units, -10% penalty vs. archers/throwing (slow-moving when close into combat formation just before engaging), +15% bonus vs. mounted units (reduced compared to Spearmen- inflexible formations), free "Formation" promotion (+20% vs. mounted units)
Axemen: 5 strength (melee), +50% bonus vs. melee units
Chariot: 6 strength (mounted, wheeled), 2 movement points, +75% bonus vs. melee units, -50% forest/jungle/swamp attack, can withdraw (25% chance, starts at 10% HP)
Hittite Chariot (Hittite UU): 6 strength (mounted, wheeled), 2 movement points, +100% bonus vs. melee units, -50% jungle/swamp attack, -25% forest attack, can withdraw (25% chance, starts at 10% HP), immune to first strikes
Composite Bowmen: 5 strength (archers), 1 first strike, +25% hills bonus, +50% city bonus
Phalanx (Greek UU): 5 strength (melee) ; +60% bonus vs. melee units (should be stronger than Axemen on open ground- due to superior tactics) ; -5% penalty vs. archers/throwing (moderately slow-moving in combat formation, much faster than hoplites); +100% combat bonus vs. Chariot, Early Chariot, Hittite Chariot, Horsemen
Xifos (Minoan UU): 8 strength (melee), 20% bonus attacking cities
Iron Age units:
Light Swordsmen: 7 strength (melee), 20% bonus attacking cities
Spartan Warriors (Spartan UU): 7 strength (melee), 20% bonus attacking cities, free "Heroic" promotion
Praetorians (Roman UU): 8 strength (melee) ; +20% city attack; free Loyalty, March, Tactics promotions
FURTHER EXPLANATION:
- I suggest increasing the strength of Thorax Hoplites from 5 to 6, but cutting in half their bonus vs. mounted units (from a net of +70% including the free promotion, to a net of +35%)- making them overall weaker against them, giving them a -10% penalty vs. archers/throwing units (they will still be a bit stronger than Spearmen vs. archers/throwing, due to their higher base strength- as they should be due to their heavier armor), and giving them a +30% bonus vs. melee units (this should allow them to perform better than Axemen vs. melee units- Hoplites were historically well-suited to CRUSHING lighter spearmen and swordsmen on open ground, usually with far fewer losses than most axemen would face).
If you're wondering what units can now take on Thorax Hoplites on open ground, all other things being equal, the answer is mounted units (among early melee units, only the Phalanx, and heavier swordsmen like the Xifos or Praetorians should be able to outmatch the heavily-armored Thorax Hoplite man-for-man)- most of which still are stronger than the hoplites due to their massive bonuses vs. melee units or combat bonuses on open ground... Horse or even Chariot Archers (on open ground) will make short work of a unit of Thorax Hoplites...
- I suggest increasing the combat bonus of the Phalanx vs. melee units to +60% (making them stronger than Thorax Hoplites or Axemen in melee combat), but giving it a -5% combat penalty vs. archers/throwing units. I also suggest broadening the +100% combat bonus to also be against the Early Chariot and Hittite Chariot units- which are the other two melee-chariots in the game (I assume that Chariot Archers should still be able to slaughter a Phalanx from a safe distance...)
The bonus is a holdover from the original Phalanx unit (in unmodded Beyond The Sword), before earlier/ more primitive mounted units such as the Early Chariot or Horsemen were ever introduced (in the original game, the Chariot is the only mounted unit before the Horse Archer). Without the broadening of this bonus, a Phalanx can currently easily defeat a Chariot- but an Early Chariot can, ironically, make short work of the same Phalanx. A Macedonian-style phalanx was historically much better-trained than a unit of Hoplites- and was capable of performing feats like marching backwards while still facing forwards, or making a 180-degree turn in quick and good order- making it *extremely* difficult for cavalry to outflank... (their historical weakness was in advancing across rough terrain, which opened up gaps in their front line- but they were quite capable of quickly turning to meet any opponent, mounted or on foot, when they were not actively engaged in melee combat)
The improved bonus vs. melee units of the Phalanx makes it able to defeat Axemen the majority of the time (in the unmodded game, they are equals), but the addition oh higher-strength archer/throwing units (such as the Composite Bowman and Javelineer- both strength 5 units) to Caveman2Cosmos, in addition to the small penalty vs. archer and throwing units I suggested earlier, makes it extremely vulnerable to ranged units on foot of a similar tech level in this mod- which was NEVER a concern in the unmodded game (where the Archer unit only had a strength of 3, compared to the Phalanx being strength 5), where the ONLY non-unique unit available at a similar tech level that had an advantage against a Phalanx was the War Elephant (note that I have left vulnerabilities to elephant units, bear units, and even deer or bison units- which all rely either on shock and mass, or mounted archery...)
- I suggest *either* removing the requirement for Bronze Working when building the "Hittite Chariot" unit (so, like the "Early Chariot" unit, it is buildable as soon as you discover Chariotry) *OR* increasing its base strength to 6 to match the "Chariot" unit, rather than the "Early Chariot" unit. As it currently stands, it cannot be built until the exact same techs as the "Chariot" unit- making it effectively worthless unless facing a unit with lots of first strikes (even with its higher bonus vs. Melee units, its much lower base strength still leaves it weaker at fighting melee units- as well as all other unit types).
All the Early Chariot is supposed to be is a more primitive/earlier version of the Chariot unit available before Bronze Working, and the Hittite Chariot is just a unique unit that is currently a slightly-improved Early Chariot which is stronger at attacking into forests, has a larger bonus vs. melee units, and is immune to first strikes- but once again is unavailable until Bronze Working like the standard "Chariot"...
- I suggest adding a combat penalty attacking into swamps to all chariot-type units in Swamp terrain (this should also include any future unique units relying on chariots). Horsemen and other horse-mounted units already face a combat penalty attacking into swamps- there is no reason that adding a chariot to the horse (which, if anything, adds the potential for the wheels to get stuck in the swampy ground) should make things any better...
- I suggest removing the "throwing" category from Spartan Warriors because I cannot see any justification for it, and it makes the unit much more vulnerable to Horsemen- which is inaccurate for what was basically an elite unit of Hoplites (heavily armored spearmen in a tightly packed formation adapted for crushing melee units).
EDIT: to make this clearer for some of you who didn't read the original post carefully, I have highlighted which units are UU's. The "Thorax Hoplite" is NOT a new proposed general unit, for instance- it is the *current* UU for the "Athenian" culture (much like Spartan Warriors for the "Spartan" culture).
So first of all, let me start off with an article about the Macedonian-style phalanx (what I have always assumed the "Phalanx" unit to represent).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_phalanx
Never mind what the Wikipedia article says- the Macedonian Phalanx was actually somewhat more vulnerable to ranged troops than the Greek Hoplite, due to their comparatively light armor (although this did enable the troops greater mobility like the Wikipedia articles says- comparatively heavy infantry like phalangites were almost never used to chase off archers, and were never very good at doing so. Light cavalry and skirmishers functioned in this role, and were much better at it...)
Now, the new "Athenian" culture would have the "Thorax Hoplite" as its unique unit (currently already completed as far as I can tell, and entered in the Civilopedia- but the Athenian culture itself cannot currently be built)
The name "Thorax Hoplite" seems to suggest *HOPLITE* equipment and tactics (rather than Macedonian-style Phalanx equipment and tactics), which were VERY different than those of the Macedonian-style phalanx, despite some superficial similarities in appearance and equipment (Hoplites wore MUCH heavier armor, and carried much shorter pikes. They closed into much tighter combat, and attempted to break their enemy by shear shock and mass rather than holding them at a distance with the phalangites' much longer pikes and often waiting on cavalry to finish the job...) Therefore, it should have a bonus against melee units (the formation was designed to crush enemy infantry), as well as a higher base strength (to reflect their extremely heavy armor- which provided some of the best protection in the ancient world against missiles like arrows- the heavy bronze armor worn by the better Hoplites was unmatched in its protection even by the later Roman legionaries- who tended to rely on much thinner and lighter iron).
Here is a rough list of the various Greek-world military units, as well as several competing units for comparison; when running both combat options (Size Matters, and the other one). I suggest a number of changes to improve balance and realism, and then explain them further below:
CURRENTLY:
Copper Age units:
Archers: 4 strength (archers), 1 first strike, +25% hills defense, +50% city defense
Early Chariot: 4 strength (mounted, wheeled), 2 movement points, +75% bonus vs. melee units, -50% forest/jungle attack, can withdraw (25% chance, standard HP-trigger)
Chariot Archer: 4 strength (mounted, wheeled), 2 movement points, +100% vs. melee units, 1 first strike, -50% forest/jungle attack, can withdraw (25% chance, starts at 30% HP)
Spearmen: 5 strength (melee), +50% bonus vs. mounted units. +50% bonus vs. *wild* animals (only useful for hunting)
Javelineers: 5 strength (throwing), 0-2 first strikes, +10% city strength (effects both attack/defense), +50% vs. archer units, +25% vs. mounted units, +25% vs. animals (helps vs. wardogs and similar units), can withdraw (12% chance, starts at 50% HP), causes collateral damage (12% chance, 1 unit)
Horsemen: 6 strength (mounted), 2 movement points, +25% combat bonus attacking grassland/plains/desert, -25% combat penalty attacking forest/jungle/swamp, 0-1 first strikes, can withdraw (30% chance)
Bronze Age units:
Thorax Hoplite (Athenian UU): 5 strength (melee), +50% bonus vs. mounted units, free "Formation" promotion (+20% bonus vs. mounted units)
Axeman: 5 strength (melee), +50% bonus vs. melee units
Chariot: 6 strength (mounted, wheeled), 2 movement points, +75% bonus vs. melee units, -50% forest/jungle attack, can withdraw (25% chance, starts at 10% HP)
Hittite Chariot (Hittite UU): 4 strength (mounted, wheeled), 2 movement points, +100% bonus vs. melee units, -50% jungle attack, -25% forest attack, can withdraw (25% chance, starts at 10% HP), immune to first strikes
Composite Bowmen: 5 strength (archers), 1 first strike, +25% hills bonus, +50% city bonus
Phalanx (Greek UU): 5 strength (melee), +50% bonus vs. melee units, +100% combat bonus vs. Chariot (only helps against "Chariot" unit- not "Early Chariot" or "Chariot Archer")
Xifos (Minoan UU): 8 strength (melee), 20% bonus attacking cities
Iron Age units:
Light Swordsmen: 7 strength (melee), 20% bonus attacking cities
Spartan Warriors (Spartan UU): 7 strength (melee, throwing), 20% bonus attacking cities, free "Heroic" promotion (+20% strength, +20% bonus attacking/defending cities)
Praetorians (Roman UU): 8 strength (melee) ; +20% city attack; free Loyalty, March, Tactics promotions
I suggest some changes to be better-balanced, and more in line with their historical counterparts. Changes are in bold:
SUGGESTED:
Copper age units:
Archers: 4 strength (archers), 1 first strike, +25% hills defense, +50% city defense
Early Chariot: 4 strength (mounted, wheeled), 2 movement points, +75% bonus vs. melee units, -50% forest/jungle/swamp attack, can withdraw (25% chance, standard HP-trigger)
Chariot Archer: 4 strength (mounted, wheeled), 2 movement points, +100% vs. melee units, 1 first strike, -50% forest/jungle/swamp attack, can withdraw (25% chance, starts at 30% HP)
Spearmen: 5 strength (melee), +50% bonus vs. mounted units. +50% bonus vs. *wild* animals (only useful for hunting)
Javelineers: 5 strength (throwing), 0-2 first strikes, +10% city strength (effects both attack/defense), +50% vs. archer units, +25% vs. mounted units, +25% vs. animals (helps vs. wardogs and similar units), can withdraw (12% chance, starts at 50% HP), causes collateral damage (12% chance, 1 unit)
Horsemen: 6 strength (mounted), 2 movement points, +25% combat bonus attacking grassland/plains/desert, -25% combat penalty attacking forest/jungle/swamp, 0-1 first strikes, can withdraw (30% chance)
Bronze Age units:
Thorax Hoplite (Athenian UU): 6 strength (as they wore very heavy armor),+30% bonus vs. melee units, -10% penalty vs. archers/throwing (slow-moving when close into combat formation just before engaging), +15% bonus vs. mounted units (reduced compared to Spearmen- inflexible formations), free "Formation" promotion (+20% vs. mounted units)
Axemen: 5 strength (melee), +50% bonus vs. melee units
Chariot: 6 strength (mounted, wheeled), 2 movement points, +75% bonus vs. melee units, -50% forest/jungle/swamp attack, can withdraw (25% chance, starts at 10% HP)
Hittite Chariot (Hittite UU): 6 strength (mounted, wheeled), 2 movement points, +100% bonus vs. melee units, -50% jungle/swamp attack, -25% forest attack, can withdraw (25% chance, starts at 10% HP), immune to first strikes
Composite Bowmen: 5 strength (archers), 1 first strike, +25% hills bonus, +50% city bonus
Phalanx (Greek UU): 5 strength (melee) ; +60% bonus vs. melee units (should be stronger than Axemen on open ground- due to superior tactics) ; -5% penalty vs. archers/throwing (moderately slow-moving in combat formation, much faster than hoplites); +100% combat bonus vs. Chariot, Early Chariot, Hittite Chariot, Horsemen
Xifos (Minoan UU): 8 strength (melee), 20% bonus attacking cities
Iron Age units:
Light Swordsmen: 7 strength (melee), 20% bonus attacking cities
Spartan Warriors (Spartan UU): 7 strength (melee), 20% bonus attacking cities, free "Heroic" promotion
Praetorians (Roman UU): 8 strength (melee) ; +20% city attack; free Loyalty, March, Tactics promotions
FURTHER EXPLANATION:
- I suggest increasing the strength of Thorax Hoplites from 5 to 6, but cutting in half their bonus vs. mounted units (from a net of +70% including the free promotion, to a net of +35%)- making them overall weaker against them, giving them a -10% penalty vs. archers/throwing units (they will still be a bit stronger than Spearmen vs. archers/throwing, due to their higher base strength- as they should be due to their heavier armor), and giving them a +30% bonus vs. melee units (this should allow them to perform better than Axemen vs. melee units- Hoplites were historically well-suited to CRUSHING lighter spearmen and swordsmen on open ground, usually with far fewer losses than most axemen would face).
If you're wondering what units can now take on Thorax Hoplites on open ground, all other things being equal, the answer is mounted units (among early melee units, only the Phalanx, and heavier swordsmen like the Xifos or Praetorians should be able to outmatch the heavily-armored Thorax Hoplite man-for-man)- most of which still are stronger than the hoplites due to their massive bonuses vs. melee units or combat bonuses on open ground... Horse or even Chariot Archers (on open ground) will make short work of a unit of Thorax Hoplites...
- I suggest increasing the combat bonus of the Phalanx vs. melee units to +60% (making them stronger than Thorax Hoplites or Axemen in melee combat), but giving it a -5% combat penalty vs. archers/throwing units. I also suggest broadening the +100% combat bonus to also be against the Early Chariot and Hittite Chariot units- which are the other two melee-chariots in the game (I assume that Chariot Archers should still be able to slaughter a Phalanx from a safe distance...)
The bonus is a holdover from the original Phalanx unit (in unmodded Beyond The Sword), before earlier/ more primitive mounted units such as the Early Chariot or Horsemen were ever introduced (in the original game, the Chariot is the only mounted unit before the Horse Archer). Without the broadening of this bonus, a Phalanx can currently easily defeat a Chariot- but an Early Chariot can, ironically, make short work of the same Phalanx. A Macedonian-style phalanx was historically much better-trained than a unit of Hoplites- and was capable of performing feats like marching backwards while still facing forwards, or making a 180-degree turn in quick and good order- making it *extremely* difficult for cavalry to outflank... (their historical weakness was in advancing across rough terrain, which opened up gaps in their front line- but they were quite capable of quickly turning to meet any opponent, mounted or on foot, when they were not actively engaged in melee combat)
The improved bonus vs. melee units of the Phalanx makes it able to defeat Axemen the majority of the time (in the unmodded game, they are equals), but the addition oh higher-strength archer/throwing units (such as the Composite Bowman and Javelineer- both strength 5 units) to Caveman2Cosmos, in addition to the small penalty vs. archer and throwing units I suggested earlier, makes it extremely vulnerable to ranged units on foot of a similar tech level in this mod- which was NEVER a concern in the unmodded game (where the Archer unit only had a strength of 3, compared to the Phalanx being strength 5), where the ONLY non-unique unit available at a similar tech level that had an advantage against a Phalanx was the War Elephant (note that I have left vulnerabilities to elephant units, bear units, and even deer or bison units- which all rely either on shock and mass, or mounted archery...)
- I suggest *either* removing the requirement for Bronze Working when building the "Hittite Chariot" unit (so, like the "Early Chariot" unit, it is buildable as soon as you discover Chariotry) *OR* increasing its base strength to 6 to match the "Chariot" unit, rather than the "Early Chariot" unit. As it currently stands, it cannot be built until the exact same techs as the "Chariot" unit- making it effectively worthless unless facing a unit with lots of first strikes (even with its higher bonus vs. Melee units, its much lower base strength still leaves it weaker at fighting melee units- as well as all other unit types).
All the Early Chariot is supposed to be is a more primitive/earlier version of the Chariot unit available before Bronze Working, and the Hittite Chariot is just a unique unit that is currently a slightly-improved Early Chariot which is stronger at attacking into forests, has a larger bonus vs. melee units, and is immune to first strikes- but once again is unavailable until Bronze Working like the standard "Chariot"...
- I suggest adding a combat penalty attacking into swamps to all chariot-type units in Swamp terrain (this should also include any future unique units relying on chariots). Horsemen and other horse-mounted units already face a combat penalty attacking into swamps- there is no reason that adding a chariot to the horse (which, if anything, adds the potential for the wheels to get stuck in the swampy ground) should make things any better...
- I suggest removing the "throwing" category from Spartan Warriors because I cannot see any justification for it, and it makes the unit much more vulnerable to Horsemen- which is inaccurate for what was basically an elite unit of Hoplites (heavily armored spearmen in a tightly packed formation adapted for crushing melee units).
EDIT: to make this clearer for some of you who didn't read the original post carefully, I have highlighted which units are UU's. The "Thorax Hoplite" is NOT a new proposed general unit, for instance- it is the *current* UU for the "Athenian" culture (much like Spartan Warriors for the "Spartan" culture).
. Problem is that phalanxes would belong to a Mediterranean culture set rather than the European or Middle East ones we currently have.
I thought you agreed to them!
