C2C - Civics Discussion Thread

I just noticed that despotism is plus 30% food required to grow, yet the two more basic civics (anarchism and chiefdom) have no penalties to growth. Is this correct? I'm not sure I'll use despotism in the current setup - just skip it and wait for monarchy I think...
 
I just noticed that despotism is plus 30% food required to grow, yet the two more basic civics (anarchism and chiefdom) have no penalties to growth. Is this correct? I'm not sure I'll use despotism in the current setup - just skip it and wait for monarchy I think...

Maybe whoever set that thought of it like the Despot taking food from the cities regularly?
 
I have started to go over the CIV4CivicInfos file and am making changes that I think have been long overdue. I'm testing the changes in my current game. Some of the things I've mentioned and protested over in this and other threads have been adjusted to those arguments.

Currently the Gov't and Power Civics have received the most "tweaks", with others to a lesser degree.

The 2 Civics with the biggest changes are 2 that have been my pet peeves, Pacifism and Slavery. These 2 are ( imho ) so out of kilter that it "hurts" to see the AI use them almost exclusively for an entire game to their detriment.

The Civics should be that you should see a variety being used by the AI. Especially with the Leader's Traits being diversified, so too should their Civic usage. But instead I've seen for many C2C versions and even back to AND and RoM days that the AI will use several Civics eXclusively for entire games. Slavery was the 1st Culprit and now Pacifist is another.

Players too get into the habit of having "favorite" Civics, I'm as guilty as anyone on this. Why? Not because of different play styles but because the "negatives" of some of the Civics so outweigh the "positives" that we just don't want to use them or even give them a try or look see if you will.

With that said I'm still learning what different bits of xml does in this file so I've made so mistakes, like learning that the # I entered between <ixxx>#</ixxx> turns out to be a per cent instead of an integer. So that merchant specialist gives 10 espionage and not 0.10 espionage and vice versa like I thought it would.

I'll post a copy later on when I've worked more things out.

JosEPh :)
 
I have started to go over the CIV4CivicInfos file and am making changes that I think have been long overdue. I'm testing the changes in my current game. Some of the things I've mentioned and protested over in this and other threads have been adjusted to those arguments.

Currently the Gov't and Power Civics have received the most "tweaks", with others to a lesser degree.

The 2 Civics with the biggest changes are 2 that have been my pet peeves, Pacifism and Slavery. These 2 are ( imho ) so out of kilter that it "hurts" to see the AI use them almost exclusively for an entire game to their detriment.

The Civics should be that you should see a variety being used by the AI. Especially with the Leader's Traits being diversified, so too should their Civic usage. But instead I've seen for many C2C versions and even back to AND and RoM days that the AI will use several Civics eXclusively for entire games. Slavery was the 1st Culprit and now Pacifist is another.

Players too get into the habit of having "favorite" Civics, I'm as guilty as anyone on this. Why? Not because of different play styles but because the "negatives" of some of the Civics so outweigh the "positives" that we just don't want to use them or even give them a try or look see if you will.

With that said I'm still learning what different bits of xml does in this file so I've made so mistakes, like learning that the # I entered between <ixxx>#</ixxx> turns out to be a per cent instead of an integer. So that merchant specialist gives 10 espionage and not 0.10 espionage and vice versa like I thought it would.

I'll post a copy later on when I've worked more things out.

JosEPh :)

Sounds good, Joseph. Looking forward to hearing about your tests and proposed changes.
 
Speaking of Military civic in other thread, one question came up in my head.
Do you use Conscription? I've never used it. I hate "Units produced with :food:" part.
 
No I don't use it. I don't like that part either. And even moreso now with the recent adjustments to food production and city growth.

I'll wait till Volunteer is available and upon rare occasion I'll use Standing if I'm forced into war.

JosEPh
 
Speaking of Military civic in other thread, one question came up in my head.
Do you use Conscription? I've never used it. I hate "Units produced with :food:" part.

I've actually never understood the real benefit of using :food: to make troops vs using :hammers: I usually rather have my city growing AND making units than to halt city growth with unit production.

I suppose if you had very little :hammers: production in a city but a ton of :food: it might make sense? Like if you're cities are mostly in the plains and rivers and you have farms all over the place.
 
I usually switch to conscription asap, then pacifism, but prefer vol/standing army.

HUH really, i NEVER use conscription, pacifism or either vol/standing army:mischief:
 
I use conscription sometimes, but not pacifism, since I always seem to be at war.

I love pacifism if I can keep out of wars. I tend to try to oprate a very GP-oriented game so the large boost from pacifism is very helpful. Never used conscription though.
 
I usually switch to conscription asap, then pasifism, but prefer vol/standing army.

HUH really, i NEVER use conscription, pacifism or either vol/standing army:mischief:

I use conscription sometimes, but not pacifism, since I always seem to be at war.

I love pacifism if I can keep out of wars. I tend to try to oprate a very GP-oriented game so the large boost from pacifism is very helpful. Never used conscription though.

Again, i hate to keep saying it, but see the differences even between "US" modders, in this mod there are things that each one uses separately, not all of us BUT its in there.
 
I have started to go over the CIV4CivicInfos file and am making changes that I think have been long overdue. I'm testing the changes in my current game. Some of the things I've mentioned and protested over in this and other threads have been adjusted to those arguments.

Currently the Gov't and Power Civics have received the most "tweaks", with others to a lesser degree.

The 2 Civics with the biggest changes are 2 that have been my pet peeves, Pacifism and Slavery. These 2 are ( imho ) so out of kilter that it "hurts" to see the AI use them almost exclusively for an entire game to their detriment.

The Civics should be that you should see a variety being used by the AI. Especially with the Leader's Traits being diversified, so too should their Civic usage. But instead I've seen for many C2C versions and even back to AND and RoM days that the AI will use several Civics eXclusively for entire games. Slavery was the 1st Culprit and now Pacifist is another.

Players too get into the habit of having "favorite" Civics, I'm as guilty as anyone on this. Why? Not because of different play styles but because the "negatives" of some of the Civics so outweigh the "positives" that we just don't want to use them or even give them a try or look see if you will.

With that said I'm still learning what different bits of xml does in this file so I've made so mistakes, like learning that the # I entered between <ixxx>#</ixxx> turns out to be a per cent instead of an integer. So that merchant specialist gives 10 espionage and not 0.10 espionage and vice versa like I thought it would.

I'll post a copy later on when I've worked more things out.

JosEPh :)

@JosEPH

There will be a 1 week freeze on changes starting tomorrow, so if you have recommendations on a few Civic tweaks, please post them asap today. I think we're well aware of a few you think are broken, but some specific recommendations that you've tested would be great.

Offhand, I know you've mentioned the big culture boost in Pacifism and War Weariness across the board. What are your suggested numbers for these? (and any other area you think needs adjusting)

I'm hoping you can post early so others can comment before changes are made. Fortunately, tweaking is non-permanent and an ongoing process, so any of these changes that don't work out can always be adjusted again. :)
 
I've actually never understood the real benefit of using :food: to make troops vs using :hammers: I usually rather have my city growing AND making units than to halt city growth with unit production.

I suppose if you had very little :hammers: production in a city but a ton of :food: it might make sense? Like if you're cities are mostly in the plains and rivers and you have farms all over the place.

That reminds me of something I've been meaning to bring up: Whipping. Does anyone use this anymore? With how slow cities grow in the early game, losing any amount of population is a huge setback. I've seen AI cities that I've been sieging go from 8 pop down to 4 in order to build an extra few axeman. I think the AI is still working under the assumption that it's only losing 5-10 turns of growth when it loses a pop point, not 30+ turns. Maybe it should be disabled altogether, now that slavery lets you turn citizens into slave specialists you can boost your production that way.
 
Speaking of Military civic in other thread, one question came up in my head.
Do you use Conscription? I've never used it. I hate "Units produced with :food:" part.

I use Conscription till Volunteer Army is avail, sometimes I"ll use Standing Army for a bit, but I usually just stay with Conscription till Vol Army. I like using the food in addition in hammers to pump out troops that much quicker, since generally I only have one or two cities in a game thats geared towards producing troops. That and being able to draft troops is nice in the event I need one or two more cannon fodder, or I suddenly realize that a particular city has one or two more population then I really like ;) On occasion I'll found a city thats nothing but farms that can quickly recoup its population to do nothing but draft troops, and drop down a wonder building that nullifies the unhappines effect :)
 
I just noticed that despotism is plus 30% food required to grow, yet the two more basic civics (anarchism and chiefdom) have no penalties to growth. Is this correct? I'm not sure I'll use despotism in the current setup - just skip it and wait for monarchy I think...

Do you think the food growth penalty needs to be lowered/removed for Despotism?
 
Considering some changes to the Pacifism Civic. There have been comments about it being OP and overly used by the AI (and players). As the name implies, I'm gearing it towards being even LESS friendly to military related aspects, as well as reducing some of the benefits it gives. Comparing it to the other Military Civics, there really aren't any others than provide non-military / non-war benefits, which is why, I suspect, the AI always uses it.

I think if a nation is going to say they practice pacifism, and get benefits for it, then that should mean something than merely "not being at war." I encourage thoughts and opinions, as always. :)

Here is what I am considering (old values in parenthesis if present):

  • +50% Birthrate for GP (+100%)
  • -50% Great General rate
  • +50% :culture: in All Cities (+100%)
  • +3 :) in All Cities (+3 in Largest Cities)
  • +2 :mad: from Barracks, Garrison, Military Airbase, Warrior's Hut, Arena, Fighting Pit, Armourer, Gladiator School, Weapons Factory, Military Satellites, Biological Warfare Lab, Military Academy, Pentagon
  • +2 :) United Nations, Olympic Games
  • +1 :mad: all Towers -except very first-, all Batteries, Venetian Arsenal, Arc de Triomphe
  • -10% :espionage: in All Cities
  • -10% Maintenance for All Cities in the Nation
  • +3 Support Cost per Military Unit (+2 Support Cost per Military Unit)
  • Anarchy Length 3 (2)

Edit: Updated current proposed changes.
 
Considering some changes to the Pacifism Civic. There have been comments about it being OP and overly used by the AI (and players). As the name implies, I'm gearing it towards being even LESS friendly to military related aspects, as well as reducing some of the benefits it gives. Comparing it to the other Military Civics, there really aren't any others than provide non-military / non-war benefits, which is why, I suspect, the AI always uses it.

I think if a nation is going to say they practice pacifism, and get benefits for it, then that should mean something than merely "not being at war." I encourage thoughts and opinions, as always. :)

Here is what I am considering (old values in parenthesis):

  • +25% Birthrate for GP (+100%)
  • -50% Great General rate (no setting prior)
  • +50% :culture: in All Cities (+100%)
  • +3 :) in All Cities (+3 in Largest Cities)
  • +2 :mad: from Barracks, Garrison, Military Airbase, and other military related buildings
  • -10% :espionage: in All Cities (no setting prior)
  • +3 Support Cost per Military Unit (+2 Support Cost per Military Unit)
  • Anarchy Length 3 (2)

Is there any way to decrease military production in all cities as well? Say 10-25%'ish? To represent the lack of people willing to join the military in a pacifistic environment..
 
Is there any way to decrease military production in all cities as well? Say 10-25%'ish? To represent the lack of people willing to join the military in a pacifistic environment..

There already is a -75% Military Production for Pacifism. I didn't list the values I didn't plan to change. But here they are for reference:

  • Upkeep Low
  • Req Tech: Philosophy
  • -75% Military Unit Production
  • Unlimited Artists
  • War Weariness +100%

I've also added to the building happiness:

  • +2 :) United Nations
  • +2 :) Olympic Games
  • +1 :mad: Arena, Armourer, Warrior's Hut, Gladiator School, Weapons Factory, Military Satellites, Biological Warfare Lab, Military Academy, Pentagon
  • +1 :mad: all Towers & Batteries, Venetian Arsenal, Arc de Triomphe

Might be a tad strict atm, so thinking of some maintenance reduction to signify less money spent on military in cities abroad.

Edit: I know Joseph DOES NOT like WW that high, but Pacifism should give a SIGNIFICANT penalty to WW when at war. More than any other civic.
 
I suggest you leave the AI out of the arguments about the strength of a civic.
Either the civic is too strong then it is right that the AI is using it often but then the only thing that matters is that the civic is too strong and needs to be nerfed.
If the AI is using it too often despite that the civic is not overpowered then the code for the AI needs to be changed and not the civic.

In short: The AI should only impact balance decisions in cases where it is too difficult to get the AI to use a mechanic correctly.
 
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