C2C: Promotions

ls612 · Apr 26, 2012

@Hydro: Would you be willing to make me icons for a Forestry and a Hillsman promotion.

Basically, these would become available after Combat II and give a unit the ability to have double movement on the coresponding terrain. This double move would be removed from the later Woodsman and Guerilla promotions.

Does this seem reasonable to you?

Hydromancerx · Apr 26, 2012

Why would we need that if we have Woodsman and Guerrilla?

ls612 · Apr 26, 2012

Hydromancerx said:
Why would we need that if we have Woodsman and Guerrilla?

I would remove those benefits from Woodsman and Guerilla. Currently IMO they make the second level of those promos a bit OP.

Hydromancerx · Apr 26, 2012

Oh so Woodsman and Guerrilla are getting nerfed? Would you need Forestry and a Hillsman to get Woodsman and Guerrilla?

Hydromancerx · Apr 26, 2012

ls612 said:
@Hydro: Would you be willing to make me icons for a Forestry and a Hillsman promotion.

Basically, these would become available after Combat II and give a unit the ability to have double movement on the coresponding terrain. This double move would be removed from the later Woodsman and Guerilla promotions.

Does this seem reasonable to you?

Here you go.

ls612 · Apr 26, 2012

Hydromancerx said:
Oh so Woodsman and Guerrilla are getting nerfed? Would you need Forestry and a Hillsman to get Woodsman and Guerrilla?

Yes, that's the general picture. Thanks for the icons.

Dancing Hoskuld · Apr 26, 2012

ls612 said:
Yes, that's the general picture. Thanks for the icons.

The woodsman and gurilla promotions are used for the chance to subdue an animal. If you are going to change them I will need to change the Outcomes also.

BlueGenie · Apr 27, 2012

Dancing Hoskuld said:
The woodsman and gurilla promotions are used for the chance to subdue an animal. If you are going to change them I will need to change the Outcomes also.

Not if Woodsman I and Guerilla I weren't blocked and only at II would they need the Forestry and Hillsman promotions.

Cheers

Dancing Hoskuld · Apr 27, 2012

BlueGenie said:
Not if Woodsman I and Guerilla I weren't blocked and only at II would they need the Forestry and Hillsman promotions.

Cheers

Woodsman/Guerilla I,II & III promotions each increase the chance of successfully subduing an animal by 5% each for a total of 30% if you have all 6. If you are going to change these promotions to require other promotions then you will be changing the mechanism.

BlueGenie · Apr 27, 2012

Hmm. I don't quite agree. It will change how LONG it will take to get those +30% but won't change the mechanics of getting those +30%. Just a few more promotions needed, and not many more. 2 more in fact.

Woodsman I, no prerequisite.
Woodsman II, requires Woodsman I and Forestry.
Woodsman III, requires Woodsman II.

Guerilla I, no prerequisite.
Guerilla II, requires Guerilla I and Hillsman.
Guerilla III, requires Guerilla II.

I didn't know Guerilla promotions increased the subdue chance either, nor that Woodsman did. There's nothing about that in the hover text, or civilopedia (the latter I'm not 100% sure about though). Having that added to the hover info when choosing promotion would be nice.

Cheers

robomani · Apr 27, 2012

I think you will need combat 2 promo to take Forestry or Hillsman so its 4 more promo (3 for aggressive leader melee units)

Koshling · Apr 27, 2012

BlueGenie said:
Hmm. I don't quite agree. It will change how LONG it will take to get those +30% but won't change the mechanics of getting those +30%. Just a few more promotions needed, and not many more. 2 more in fact.

Woodsman I, no prerequisite.
Woodsman II, requires Woodsman I and Forestry.
Woodsman III, requires Woodsman II.

Guerilla I, no prerequisite.
Guerilla II, requires Guerilla I and Hillsman.
Guerilla III, requires Guerilla II.

I didn't know Guerilla promotions increased the subdue chance either, nor that Woodsman did. There's nothing about that in the hover text, or civilopedia (the latter I'm not 100% sure about though). Having that added to the hover info when choosing promotion would be nice.

Cheers

Subdue probability used to be handled by Python (so invisible to the Civopedia generation). I **think** it's now all handled in the outcome system (AIAndy/DH??), but if so I don't think these promotions DO affect it any more, do they...?

BlueGenie · Apr 27, 2012

robomani said:
I think you will need combat 2 promo to take Forestry or Hillsman so its 4 more promo (3 for aggressive leader melee units)

Yes, that would need to be addressed. Forest and Hill specific promotions shouldn't really have to require a unit to go Combat at all, especially since it's mostly Recon and Hunter lines that can take them at all, at least the later Woodsman and Guerilla promotions.
I, at least, don't want my animal hunting units to be trained as soldiers. I go straight for the Woodsman and Guerilla promotions and only take Combat I once those are taken care of.

Cheers

ls612 · Apr 27, 2012

BlueGenie said:
Yes, that would need to be addressed. Forest and Hill specific promotions shouldn't really have to require a unit to go Combat at all, especially since it's mostly Recon and Hunter lines that can take them at all, at least the later Woodsman and Guerilla promotions.
I, at least, don't want my animal hunting units to be trained as soldiers. I go straight for the Woodsman and Guerilla promotions and only take Combat I once those are taken care of.

Cheers

I chose Combat II as a prereq because it requires sturdy warriors to be able to go overland fast in such hostile terrains. Gameplay-wise, I thought it was too powerful for one promo to give both the defense bonuses and the double move, especially that early in the Prehistoric Era.

Hydromancerx · Apr 27, 2012

If these changes go in effect some of the Unique Units may need to be altered since they were given Woodsman or Guerrilla for the movement benefit.

BlueGenie · Apr 27, 2012

Sturdy warriors, or Recon/Hunter units which are already specialized in traversing large areas to explore or hunt. Neither need to be sturdy Warriors, imo.
Also, are Archer, Mounted units even able to get Woodsman/Guerilla II? Melee, Gunpowder, Hi-tech, Recon, Hunters. Oh, and Archers for Guerilla II but not Woodsman II.

I'm not against splitting the movement/defence up into two promotions, but I do resent needing Combat II for even starting to get them at all.

Cheers

ls612 · Apr 27, 2012

Hydromancerx said:
If these changes go in effect some of the Unique Units may need to be altered since they were given Woodsman or Guerrilla for the movement benefit.

Do you have a list of those?

Hydromancerx · Apr 27, 2012

ls612 said:
Do you have a list of those?

No we would have to go through them an see which ones have any Woodsman or Guerrilla promotions.

Dancing Hoskuld · Apr 27, 2012

If you are going to require another promotion between woodsman I and woodsman II then you will need to change the MAX_XP from animals and barbarians plus the MAX kept from upgrading the unit. These are no longer in the XML controlled by the player so I don't know where the change will need to be made.

Koshling said:
Subdue probability used to be handled by Python (so invisible to the Civopedia generation). I **think** it's now all handled in the outcome system (AIAndy/DH??), but if so I don't think these promotions DO affect it any more, do they...?

There is no python in Subdued Animals now. It is all done via the Outcome System.

ls612 · Apr 27, 2012

Dancing Hoskuld said:
If you are going to require another promotion between woodsman I and woodsman II then you will need to change the MAX_XP from animals and barbarians plus the MAX kept from upgrading the unit. These are no longer in the XML controlled by the player so I don't know where the change will need to be made.

There is no python in Subdued Animals now. It is all done via the Outcome System.

This isn't going to be between any of the Woodsman/Guerilla promotions, it will be independant of those two lines. The only things that will changes with Guerilla and Woodsman II is that they will lose their terrain double moves.

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