Post Patch: Worker First

I look forward to the day where worker stealing isn't way more efficient than building them. Today is not that that day.

Johnpecan said:

I look forward to the day where worker stealing isn't way more efficient than building them. Today is not that that day.

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If you trim the default city state ratio down from the default 2:1 ratio to a 1:1 ratio, then there will be times that there won't be a city state near you.

But I think city states would have to become more like BE independent trade outputs (e.g. be downsized to only ever be that single tile and never build a worker) to eliminate the city state worker steal.

I don't see the point of going worker first unless you have mining resources you want to hook up. otherwise you won't even have the tech to make proper improvements. say you had calendar and trapping resources, going worker first is like handicapping yourself.

scouts are definitely worth their hammers if you get 2 ruins with each scout, and provide much better returns when they come back with a worker that they've "persuaded" to join you. it's just so much more efficient when you can get it out of your build order.

Since I started to steal workers, I only build them if stealing takes too long, because often the AI has too many units around and sending a single unit to steal is suicide and CSs often take too long to put a worker out.

But most of my games stealing will give me enough free workers only a few turns after the main resource techs are researched.

I agree on scouts (but again this depends on what map type you're playing).

I've found ancient ruins even well after turn 30 on pangaea maps. Quite often in jungles/forests where you can only see 1 tile, near mountains & barb camps, peninsulas and in polar regions.

The AI isn't as systematic in exploration as you think.

The only cheat with worker stealing is that you can make peace the same turn as you declare war.

Redaxe said:

I've found ancient ruins even well after turn 30 on pangaea maps.

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I haven't for many a game, but I turned off ancient ruins about a year ago and haven't changed that setting since. Monument first for me.

tommynt said:

The fastest deity sience win i have seen on these Forums contained a 4 or 5 Scout start - i think that says it all about how important fast scouting is.

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I wonder who did play this game.

Budweiser : Emperor and below, maybe after 1 scout and monument. Beyond, 2 scouts and you'll get your worker around T20. Except if you're far from CSor AIs or on tiny islands map.

My question is more monument or shrine after scouts. I only played two games since last patch.

MemoryJar (nice name, btw), my take on Shrine since the patch (I play a lot) is that religion is ever more of an 'all or nothing' game. Even more AIs go full Piety. Even more want their very own religion, influenced not by their 6-10 unique leader tendency, or whatever, but seemingly by how they seem to know that they can get religion faster. The boost to Piety didn't make things easier for the human, but harder. SO if you have wine, quarries, DF, etc, then maybe it's worth trying, and a shrine makes good sense after a couple of scouts, but post-patch, all SP trees need culture desperately, and so I think the best BO is Scout, Monument, Scout, and then Granary/Archer.

People, I KNOW that the computer is laughing at me; my last 4 games have had ALL the CS's on the other side of the AI's !!
Thus, the BO : 2 scouts, 2 archers, 2 workers, monument, grainery/shrine, troops .
IF I get extra workers, they're from Raging Barb's; and a right pain it is, too .
After that, I carve out my own space .

My question is more monument or shrine after scouts. I only played two games since last patch.

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totaly depends on ruins u Pop and/or if you have meet reli CS.

Getting a Pantheon is very important imo and much more worth as a worker few turns more early, even if you Religion might not dominate all world on a deity game.

Also getting the culture rolling is key.

But if no chance of Pantheon with Meeting CS allone i d say go for shrine next.

Johnpecan said:

I look forward to the day where worker stealing isn't way more efficient than building them. Today is not that that day.

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joncnunn said:

If you trim the default city state ratio down from the default 2:1 ratio to a 1:1 ratio, then there will be times that there won't be a city state near you.

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I am in the habit of playing Continents Plus, so more often than not, there is not an opportunity for early worker stealing. I doubt that I would be disciplined enough to pass over opportunities, so this keeps me honest.

Anyone figure out yet, post patch, can one steal two workers (from two different CS) without permanently poisoning CS relations?

Agreed. Worker steal ftw. Building a worker first was NEVER the right call with a tradition start, even if you were beelining GL. Also, I have to agree that the patch didn't address any of the balance issues between the policy trees. There were many changes that should have/could have been made. Many of which were suggested on these forums. Making reformation beliefs require less policies addressed none of the issues with Piety. (For example: It's still the only ancient policy tree without +culture to speed you through the tree)

Delaying the good policies in Tradition by one didn't change anything in a positive way. The only real difference (other than that mixed liberty-tradition is now more viable than ever) is that the Great Library beeline on lower difficulties is now less desirable, because you really need to build a monument before GL.

So many things needed to be fixed. (Like disallowing repair in enemy territory)

The only good things about this patch are the reduced warmonger hate in ancient era/against CS, (Genghis, and all early warmongers un-nerfed!) and the science exploit fix.

Sigh.

consentient said:

But if you build worker first and not scout then you miss out on far more in terms of total value. Even if you assume that scout is built first and want to compare the value of an early worker vs. a monument to plow through the policies, it's no contest.

I firmly believe that if anyone records a VidLP of a game to Turn 100 trying a normal build order (Scout, Monument, Scout, etc) vs. a 'worker first' BO, then the difference will be clear.

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Worker first is too soon, you will have to sleep your worker for a turn or two if you don't have the necessary technologies for the nearby improvements.

I'm very interested in "alternative" build orders. I play on Immortal, though, not on Deity.

Under normal game rules, I don't think "worker first" is worth it, primarily because of scouting. Since you have a civilian to take care about, it also binds your warrior. And you still can get pillaged if two barbs show up.

The only scenario I imagine could be interesting is if there are 4 forests in the fist 6 and I go Mining/Archery to chop out a Settler and an archer. I guess this could work well with early aggression plans with Honor opener (culture from barbs to compensate for lack of huts, plus more unit support).

tommynt said:

But if no chance of Pantheon with Meeting CS allone i d say go for shrine next.

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Thanks.

It's 3 CSand without Boudicca or Haile Selassie. I wonder if 4/5 scouts opening works without Incas. I have to try.

tommynt said:

But if no chance of Pantheon with Meeting CS allone i d say go for shrine next.

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Do you do more than two scouts? The “no chance of pantheon from only meeting CS” data point happens for me after I have already started building the shrine. My typical build order is scout, scout, monument, shrine. That is not many turns for those scouts to have found all the CS in the neighborhood.

beetle said:

Anyone figure out yet, post patch, can one steal two workers (from two different CS) without permanently poisoning CS relations?

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When I DoW 2nd CS on deity I get on board the CS hate train. It's normally safer to steal multiple workers from 1 CS anyways unless the terrain sucks.