Science victory under 250 turns, how to?

However the ToA is an indirect bonus to science, better than the GL in the long run IMHO.
Also in essence it allows the specialist slots to be filled without straining growth too much.
And I think the leaning tower also qualifies.
That said, Is Koreas research bonus in effect a research agreement or do I get it wrong?

Pretty sure LT does not qualify for Korea's bonus. Without going back and checking, my recollection is that Korea's payout is approximately the same as bulbing a GS.
 
Hi everebody, i want to achieve a SV close to t200. I've started to play Gotm57 : it's a king difficulty with Incas on a continent map.
I finished t232 for my first attempt and the record is 199. I've post in action report 57 but it's quiet late and only Hammer Rabbi has seen my post so i gonna put it there even if i found already some response in this thread :

Hello guys i'm new to civfanatics. Gotm57 brought me here. I would like to ask about early builds for scientific victory in this map (and in general).

1) Should i wait 4 pop in my cap to build a settler ? What's the right timing?
sooner = better?

2) At what turn should i start GL, HG, NC in which order ?
I popped Philo with GL, right ? Or should i wait for civil service/ theo?

3) Do you give money to CS early after a quest complete in order to be/stayed allied ?

4) What pantheons / belief do you take ?
I took desert folklore, ceremonial, divine inspiration.
But i was thinkin about messenger of the god, interfaith dialogue since my tech rate early is very low. In this case i should build more happiness buildings in my citys early on.

5) Do you build Pyramids?
I tend to steal worker from cs, buy one very early (my first buy) and maybe later build one or two more.

6) Do you build granary early in your cap since extra food can contribute to hammers when buildin settlers ?

7) Is it worth stoping improving some (great) tiles to start makin roads ( in this map with the inca they are basicaly free). Or maybe invest in more worker (see 5).
How many workers for 4 cities? 4,5,6 ?


8) Most cities doesn't expand cultural borders to hills (near mountains!). Is it worth to purchase them early even if it cost 100-185 gold ?

9) I build library as a first buldings in my new cities in order to rush NC.
Is buying better ? Or delayin a bit in favor of growth (granary/windmill)?

10) Is StoneHenge a must early ? At what turn you build it ?

11) When do you start to build an army? (how much an when)
I don't see the point of buildin one in king except if you want to annex other civ's cap. In which case, is 5 ranged, one horse/melee is enough to take a cap? (without any tech lead).
In most of my games, i'm more a techmonger than a warmonger which leads to easy war later : so i'm not very good at taking cities without a tech advantage.

12) Is it worth investing turn to build harbor, lighthouse in your cap for 2 fishes?
Do you build or buy fishboat?
When i should get a trireme to scout? As soon as i hit sailing ? buy or build ?

13) Should i avoid, at any cost, to fall in unhappiness early even if it's for 3-4 turns ?

14) Do you build cultural buildings just after science ones?
I prioritize science>production>gold/culture. I put faith alone because it's situationnal, in this map uluru+desert folklore+stonehenge+divine inspiration give plenty of faith
I tend to rush build market and workshop for early national wonders but with 4/5 cities it came a bit late in my taste, due to science buildings requirements.


PS :

Sorry if my syntax/grammar isn't correct i'm not native english.

I've tried some youtube video like tommynt, DaveMc, Tabarnak and others which definitively improve my games but they are quite soporific to watch entirely.

I know i ask a lot in once, i thank in advance anybody who can help me

I hope i post in the right place Hammer Rabbi!
 
I don't think many people will be able to help you with turn 200 SV benchmarks. My personal best is turn 229 which is a long way from turn 200.
 
If you are looking to be close to 200 as opposed to sub200 I can help you. I put my answers inside your quoted text, hope it's not too confusing

Hi everebody, i want to achieve a SV close to t200. I've started to play Gotm57 : it's a king difficulty with Incas on a continent map.
I finished t232 for my first attempt and the record is 199. I've post in action report 57 but it's quiet late and only Hammer Rabbi has seen my post so i gonna put it there even if i found already some response in this thread :

Hello guys i'm new to civfanatics. Gotm57 brought me here. I would like to ask about early builds for scientific victory in this map (and in general).

1) Should i wait 4 pop in my cap to build a settler ? What's the right timing?
sooner = better?

Never build any settlers in tradition, rush them and conquer AI cities.

2) At what turn should i start GL, HG, NC in which order ?
I popped Philo with GL, right ? Or should i wait for civil service/ theo?

Philo, build NC tight away after GL. I don't bother with HG but assess your situation.

3) Do you give money to CS early after a quest complete in order to be/stayed allied ?

Almost never unless it results in loss of ratio 15% bonus, money is to rush science buildings.

4) What pantheons / belief do you take ?
I took desert folklore, ceremonial, divine inspiration.
But i was thinkin about messenger of the god, interfaith dialogue since my tech rate early is very low. In this case i should build more happiness buildings in my citys early on.

DF is a given, CB is ok, DI meh as you don't have a faith sink such as pagodas. I would take religious community over DI in this setup and IP as enhancer and use missionaries to spread.

5) Do you build Pyramids?
I tend to steal worker from cs, buy one very early (my first buy) and maybe later build one or two more.

Sometimes. I take AI workers instead of CS and on king buy one early too.


6) Do you build granary early in your cap since extra food can contribute to hammers when buildin settlers ?


No I build or rush for faster growth.


7) Is it worth stoping improving some (great) tiles to start makin roads ( in this map with the inca they are basicaly free). Or maybe invest in more worker (see 5).
How many workers for 4 cities? 4,5,6 ?

Make roads when you can. But not at cost of great tiles you are working, if not working yet and won't be for a while, then def. Roads.

8) Most cities doesn't expand cultural borders to hills (near mountains!). Is it worth to purchase them early even if it cost 100-185 gold ?

Place cities to make them grab hills, buy as last resort, unless it's a 3/5 food hill.

9) I build library as a first buldings in my new cities in order to rush NC.
Is buying better ? Or delayin a bit in favor of growth (granary/windmill)?

Build or rush as needed to get NC same turn it's available.

10) Is StoneHenge a must early ? At what turn you build it ?

Never build it, what for with DF?

11) When do you start to build an army? (how much an when)
I don't see the point of buildin one in king except if you want to annex other civ's cap. In which case, is 5 ranged, one horse/melee is enough to take a cap? (without any tech lead).
In most of my games, i'm more a techmonger than a warmonger which leads to easy war later : so i'm not very good at taking cities without a tech advantage.

Learn then, it's worthwhile but here you can get away without it but in general not so much. Get few slingers early to complete CS quests, then more after NC.

12) Is it worth investing turn to build harbor, lighthouse in your cap for 2 fishes?
Do you build or buy fishboat?
When i should get a trireme to scout? As soon as i hit sailing ? buy or build ?

Yes for 2 fish. Build usually, trireme buy usually but I would just scout with scouts.

13) Should i avoid, at any cost, to fall in unhappiness early even if it's for 3-4 turns ?

Early is ok.

14) Do you build cultural buildings just after science ones?
I prioritize science>production>gold/culture. I put faith alone because it's situationnal, in this map uluru+desert folklore+stonehenge+divine inspiration give plenty of faith
I tend to rush build market and workshop for early national wonders but with 4/5 cities it came a bit late in my taste, due to science buildings requirements.

don't build any science buildings rush them all, build production and gold and culture ones. Ironworks and CM and other non NC stuff can wait for buildings to be complete.
and save all GS post public schools, bulb one or two to get plastics if you have cash, and then one more for Apollo, rest as late as you need to complete part techs. GL and tell us how you did.

PS :

Sorry if my syntax/grammar isn't correct i'm not native english.

I've tried some youtube video like tommynt, DaveMc, Tabarnak and others which definitively improve my games but they are quite soporific to watch entirely.

I know i ask a lot in once, i thank in advance anybody who can help me

I hope i post in the right place Hammer Rabbi!
 
Last experience on King trying to help the former OP achieve sub 250 OCC SV says that king AI expands far too slowly not to get a few of your own settlers out, even with a tradition game. At least as a general statement of looking to expand through early war. I don't know for the particular case of GOTM57. Maybe landmass is small to the number of AIs making many neighbors start close enough. I will actually look it up and try a pass.

Oddly enough, I think my best SV to date is that deity OCC T219 for an argument about freedom in OCC in this specific thread -_-. I rarely care that much about turn to victory to keep on hard tuning my game once I've passed AI on science. I usually derail towards bomber rushing neighbors and clearing the map.
 
I'd probably try Emperor or Immortal for a turn 200 victory. The AI will tech faster and their cities will be bigger when you take them over. They'll also have more money/workers to take from them.
 
Wow thanks everebody for your quick reply, particularly Maxym for it's detailed response.
I will start over and tell you what happened.

PS : what a great community !
 
Yeah Emp and Imm are usually better for fast SVs but this one had some sweet inca lands, DF, jungles room to expand and AIs that were not too broke. It was personally my fastest SV and fastest gotm SV so far. By Glory7 of course.

You are welcome, try your approach refined and see what changed. I am not a good person to as for what things by what turn as I play the game intuitively and don't know this things. GOTMs are awesome for improving your game as there are always people to learn from.
 
Funny, because GoTM 57 was one of my worst SV games I've played in the last several months :p. And then I replayed it and still did terribly.

I think soon enough we're going to have a sub 180 SV thread to figure out how to do that ;).
 
Yeah Emp and Imm are usually better for fast SVs but this one had some sweet inca lands, DF, jungles room to expand and AIs that were not too broke. It was personally my fastest SV and fastest gotm SV so far. By Glory7 of course.

You are welcome, try your approach refined and see what changed. I am not a good person to as for what things by what turn as I play the game intuitively and don't know this things. GOTMs are awesome for improving your game as there are always people to learn from.

Maybe I spend too much time rerolling maps but I don't find this start to be outstanding. I don't see it as being much better than IC10 other than the lack of one extra mountain well placed for observatory in IC10.

I actually put up a deity save as pachacuti that's competitive with this in the IC10 thread. It's lacking some 3f tiles early on but the 7f3h1-2g1f terrace farm spots make up for it.
 
I'll have a look at it again, I not know maybe we just played a really good games there. I font think the start was outstanding there, I think it was the hood terrain to expand into. I went with six city tradition iirc. Personally I was not excited by IC10 or ur save. I might still play IC 10 but as the current gotm is SV it might not happen. I do like inca though ;)
 
I wanted to play a relaxed game after a very tiring month of work, but it turned out to become a fast SV instead - with a few remarks on the general method.

First of all the setting: since I was in a relaxed mood, I decided to lower the difficulty from my usual Immortal to Emperor. The idea was that for once I would only play peacefully. I picked Greece (just to take out one warmonger, but also because they tend to start in non tundra/ice and because Greece is quite bad if you aren't going to have wars (I specifically wanted not to have a powerful civ, since I had lowered the difficulty).

The starting position was great (to my taste): salt + stone + grassland/river. Plus, for the next 10 turns of exploration nobody appeared - a sign that the other AIs were far away (good for my peaceful mood). I found nearby a religious WW in a good spot for a second city, plus various huts (I note especially the culture hut). Following my game plan, I went for Tradition.

Around T15 I met Persia, my closest neighbor, and couldn't resist stealing him a worker (I had forgotten how easy it is to do that in Emperor). 10 turns later we were again in peace and friendly after he voluntarily gave me all his gold (had just lost his only archer). I settled the 2nd and 3rd city, got a pantheon (Stone circles, very powerful for that map), and was proceeding towards NC. In the meantime I saw that I could build Mausoleum of Halicarnasus in Athens, and I did that (very probable mistake, as it proved later, but my goal wasn't a fast SV yet). At the same period I got a quest from TWO nearby CS, for a barbarian camp, getting Ally to a cultured and a military CS (note the culture one, it will be important later).

All was going fine, I had a DF with Persia and thought I would proceed towards a peaceful game when suddenly this lunatic Darius started attacking my CS - and I had the option of either losing alliance or give him a warning (which I did). At around T80, when I was about to finish NC in Athens, two things happened: 1) a Great Merchant appeared (spoiling the great people line), and 2) Persian units started getting an extra movement (golden age) -a sure sign he would attack, which he did 2-3 turns later. At the same time a scout from Attila and Napoleon appeared - I had not scouted fully, thinking mistakenly that the land was finishing at the north, while it was making a strange curve and continuing to the South. Within 10 turns I was in full war with Persia and Attila - the second one was too easy, with CBs vs those pathetically handled archers/battering rams. But the war with Darius was scary, requiring 4CBs to create the necessary kill zone.

After that I couldn't resist the temptation to repeat history: the critical battle had been won near a river, then it was Gordion, and the other Persian cities were in exactly the correct historical order - plus Darius had no army left. By turn 120 I had taken all his empire while Attila had twice attacked and twice given me all his gold within 30 turns. But by then I had universities everywhere, and a fast SV seemed possible (was at 170 beakers, but with no trading posts yet). On the other hand, I had finished Tradition and was forced to start Patronage (no other option yet there). Since I needed no more army I started wonder spamming in Athens, starting with Oracle to compensate a bit. But I had very high culture already and I would certainly be able to finish Rationalism in time (as it proved in the game).

The rest of the game was not important per se (easily got Attila and Nappy at around T140) and finally I got a SV at T246. But I have several remarks on the plan in general.

1. The non-science wonders will do harm to great people generation. The victory would have been much faster if I hadn't in between a great merchant and a great artist.

2. If you have to open Patronage due to fast culture, then the optimum IMO (of course, if you have CS allies) is to just get the "science from allies" and stop there. I made the mistake of finishing Patronage instead, while the correct order would be: 2 policies from Patronage (through Oracle), left 2 policies from Rationalism, and only then finish Patronage.

3. I was playing Continents, as usual, and a fast SV is much more difficult there than in Pangea (to the point that I think there is no comparison in timelines). The main reason is the much delayed trade, which will cripple rush buys. Plus, if you have conquered other civs, you will get the warmonger stamp and there will be no later DF.

4. As you lower the difficulty, SV becomes seriously more difficult. Not only you cannot profit from RAs - in this game I was tech leader at around T80, and was teching alone everything (no discounts). In fact, when I finished the spaceship none of the other AIs was yet in Industrial era!!!
 
The rest of the game was not important per se (easily got Attila and Nappy at around T140) and finally I got a SV at T246. But I have several remarks on the plan in general.
Grats!

1. The non-science wonders will do harm to great people generation. The victory would have been much faster if I hadn't in between a great merchant and a great artist.
You would need to build a lot of wonders to spawn a GM or GA(unless you had bad specialist micro). This generally isn't a problem since your GS points should be high enough that you never spawn an unwanted GP.

2. If you have to open Patronage due to fast culture, then the optimum IMO (of course, if you have CS allies) is to just get the "science from allies" and stop there. I made the mistake of finishing Patronage instead, while the correct order would be: 2 policies from Patronage (through Oracle), left 2 policies from Rationalism, and only then finish Patronage.
I like going into Order for the factory science boost and the GE purchases. But Patronage is a good choice too(though not as strong in my opinion).

3. I was playing Continents, as usual, and a fast SV is much more difficult there than in Pangea (to the point that I think there is no comparison in timelines). The main reason is the much delayed trade, which will cripple rush buys. Plus, if you have conquered other civs, you will get the warmonger stamp and there will be no later DF.
I wouldn't say much more difficult. It'll be a little slower, yes. But you don't need as many units because you'll have less wars. But I don't think equal starts between a Pangaea and a Continents map would be more than 15 turns apart.

4. As you lower the difficulty, SV becomes seriously more difficult. Not only you cannot profit from RAs - in this game I was tech leader at around T80, and was teching alone everything (no discounts). In fact, when I finished the spaceship none of the other AIs was yet in Industrial era!!!
Yes and no. The RA's will become completely useless, but it's so easy to take capitals on lower difficulties. Annexing two capitals is probably equal to 3 waves of 3-4 RA's each on Immortal. And you should never be getting a tech discount on any important research past turn 150 on Immortal anyways. I'm usually the first one to reach the Renaissance, so the only stuff I get discounts on are the things I can finish in 2-3 turns anyways. Deity is a different story :crazyeye:
 
You would need to build a lot of wonders to spawn a GM or GA(unless you had bad specialist micro). This generally isn't a problem since your GS points should be high enough that you never spawn an unwanted GP.
You don't need as much as you think. For example, the GM was the direct result of Mausoleum + Hanging Gardens (providing the Garden). As I said (remember, it was Emperor and you might have forgotten how easy this level seems when accustomed to higher difficulties) I went wonder spamming, and that means ALL the wonders since I could easily afford them with Athens producing them in around 10 turns and Corinth in <20 turns. At the end I had 13 GA points per turn and couldn't stop the GA no matter what I tried.

But I disagree on your thoughts about the map. Early trade is hugely important, and having only 1 or 2 trade partners affects the game by MANY turns. Of course, it affects the AI rhythm as well - but even 2-3 early turns gain is much IMO, because the start science is by far more difficult than the end game.
 
Ok i manage to do it in 208 turns.

I took Initiation rites (+100 gold per city converted) at the end 38 cities with my religion so i gained 3800 gold from it, which is not bad (i think?) compare to tithe since it give lot of cash early to buy science buidings.( i build the great mosque which complete a CS quest too)

I keeped with divine inspiration + pagodas, and at the end i had 6000 faith : 3 GS + 1GE.

Some key mistakes:

1)Didn't get pyramids : its 13 turns to get a mine on jungle without it !!
Didn't get GW early enough so Japan got it....
Was buildings those wonders in my 3rd/4th cities (thought process : KING=NP)

2)I used Oxford + the rationalism finisher at the end which gave me one more tech than needed.
Maybe use Oxtord to get plastics since it gave +3 sci ? Or even earlier ?
Also maybe i could have plant one more GS around t 130.

3) Didn't enough troops early when i wanted to take Theodora's cap.

4) I forgot two RA around t160...

5) I could have put more specialist slot + makin my cities starv + makin mines earlier
Do you go biology (in order to get hospitals) before apollo?

6) i had to buy a coliseum quite early (500 gold !) to avoid unhapiness

7) A barb camp on an island keeps spawning ships which prevents me to work some great fishes tiles for quite a long time.

8) I'm not quite sure what's the right tech path after getting Apollo?
I used two GS to get Apollo + Satelites while building Apollo in my cap i start building Hubble in my petra 3-4 turns after then i finished it with a GE.
During that i was researching the low cost tech then i bulb a lot of GS to get to SS booster tech and wait 2 turns to get Robotics and buying Spaceship Factory in my cap.
I don't know exactly when but i bought a solar plant / nuclear plant for my petra / cap. I used a GG to improve uranium asap.
During that my 3rd city was buildin Taj Mahal to get a GoldenAge ( it came quiet late and if i didn't take Washington's cap i would have had a GoldenAge naturaly since i was at +26 hapinness at this time).
My idea was to take the 3 highest cost tech with ratio finisher + Oxford (see 2)

9) I think i don't focus enough on gold buildings like bank and stockexchange since money to buy science/productions buildings is definitively the way to approch SV.

10) I didn't bother put a spy in my cap : i wanted the civ from other continent to tech fast : more everthing to trade + RA. As the result the civ from MY continent (specialy Japan/America) stole a lot of "war tech" which leads to more difficult wars.
Tips : do not sell embassies to your neighbours if you plan to DoW them later and you don't want to use a spy to do counter espionnage.

11) I only use 1-2 turns on overflow on low hammer cost buildings since i don't really understand how much you can do from this method.
Moreover i find this quiet tricky since you/I also need to build Taj Mahal and Oxford and only two of my cities have over 100 hammers/turn.
So you need to anticipate many turns in advance and imo only practice or some good timings can give this knowlegde.
Are you using overflow for more than 4 turns ?

12)Don't be lazy towards the end like me, because i think it's there you need to be the more focus in order to save some crucials turns.
 
You don't need as much as you think. For example, the GM was the direct result of Mausoleum + Hanging Gardens (providing the Garden). As I said (remember, it was Emperor and you might have forgotten how easy this level seems when accustomed to higher difficulties) I went wonder spamming, and that means ALL the wonders since I could easily afford them with Athens producing them in around 10 turns and Corinth in <20 turns. At the end I had 13 GA points per turn and couldn't stop the GA no matter what I tried.

But I disagree on your thoughts about the map. Early trade is hugely important, and having only 1 or 2 trade partners affects the game by MANY turns. Of course, it affects the AI rhythm as well - but even 2-3 early turns gain is much IMO, because the start science is by far more difficult than the end game.

13 GA is a ton for only wonders. You must've really wonder-spammed :p. You didn't build the Louvre, did you?

And nice game Golar, 208 is very impressive. I don't think I can get below 215 even with cooking the map :p.
 
I got an SV on turn 242 as Spain, immortal pangaea standard speed. Absolutely beautiful terrain - Petra, flood plains, salt, food cargo ships, Uluru + 2 other wonders discovered first. I got 18 GS total - planted 2 and burned the rest to save over 100 turns of research. A major part of income, faith generation to buy GS, and growth was my religion, so don't neglect faith. With freedom, bought 5 parts and produced the last one in 10 turns in my cap. In fact, I didn't even bother with RAs since everyone was so far behind. If I had gotten a couple worthy ones, the finish could've been even faster.

Spoiler :
 
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