Is Tourism UA limited to CV?

I am newish to BNW from lots of GnK, but at this point I have played every civ and finally won a cultural victory this weekend. My typical game configuration is Immortal, Continents Plus, Standard size, pace, AI and CS count, raging barbs.

Tourism is interesting, and I lost by CV to Portugal one game, so it's nice in particular that the AIs seem better at tourism than I am. Competition is a good thing, and I learned that I can't ignore it completely (as I pretty much did with my first BNW games).

But I feel like I am still missing something! Is Tourism good only for a CV, and otherwise useless? UAs that buff CS relations are nice because CS help every victory type, not just diplomacy. Likewise, UAs that buff science are useful towards every victory condition. Even if diplo or science are really strong, and the civ is otherwise mediocre, the player can make good use of the UA while pursing a VC of choice.

I don't understand how Tourism can be used defensively. I replayed the last 100 turns of that game that I lost to Portugal, and I was able to pull out the SV that I had been working on. The main thing I did differently was to burn Great Artists for Golden Ages instead of using them to fill slots for great works. But that was paying attention to culture, not tourism. Culture, of course, is useful in every game. So is faith, gold, hammers, and food.

Tourism, by comparison to other aspects of the game, seems so one dimensional. It is, of course, the main component of a CV -- but Tourism does not help with other VC, and is not even useful defensively against an AI working towards their own CV! Is there a way to use tourism to hamper a warmonger? If I am working towards an SV, but in close competition with an AI, can strong tourism be used to slow them down? (And if that's even possible, wouldn't resources needed for that be better spent towards my own SV?)

I feel bad for Brazil. The camps are nice, and the UU too. But more than any other civ, their strongest buff is good for one and only one VC. No other civ, not even the warmongers, are typecast that narrowly.

I read a lot of threads on this board, so I am not sure how I missed this defect when playing GnK, even if I was not paying close attention. Of course, maybe this was a big complaint when BNW first came out, so it's old news now?

you use it as a counterbalance to the ideology pressure from other civs, which would put you into serious unhappiness if you don't manage it well.

plus if your culture game is going really well you might be able to pressure other civs into revolt (order is awesome for that), and watch AIs lose cities

Tourism is a way to of hurting the happiness of everyone with a different ideology than you. If you are influential on someone, they are basically screwed if they don't switch to your ideology. And you can even steal their cities if you hurt their happiness enough.

Brazil is particularly good at this with futurism from Autocracy. They can magically extend a permanent golden age from the modern era onwards and hit all the order and freedom civs with 4 unhappiness per city as soon as they choose their ideology. Done correctly, they can turn this into a very early CV but even if they don't, it can seriously help them win in other ways.

Tourism can apply a lot of pressure on other civs. If you keep up good tourism, when ideologies start to go, you can almost remove 1 VC of your choice from the game. I've forced Shaka into Freedom and Catherine into Autocracy before. Against some AI's, it can absolutely neuter their chances of winning a game. If you are familiar and can pass a vote in the WC for your ideology, you can pretty much make everyone bow to your will or have extreme unhappiness (and even the AI gets pretty unhappy with much pressure on them).

It's quite powerful, due to how little ability you have of affecting enemies. Tourism and military are it.

That makes it good for diplomacy, obviously, since friendly civs are likely to sell their votes for cheap, but it can make it good for domination too. If those hippies want to go Order and Freedom (the AI doesn't seem to like Autocracy outside of heavy warmongers), use your superior tourism to cause unhappiness and make taking their cities easier. In my first game at Immortal, I won as Brazil with a domination victory aided by sinking Rome's happiness. They were at -15 happiness, and their penalties made running over their cities a breeze, since their units became absolutely inferior.

It, then, basically just doesn't help much with science, since culture civs like to go Freedom and Order much more than Autocracy, even though they are all meant to be used for cultural victory. That means your unhappiness is likely to draw you to a science oriented ideology anyway.

As for Brazil, they actually have a lot they can do. Their increased tourism means they can dictate how a game goes, and their increased GWAM production can mean extra culture (from writers) and golden ages (from artists), which can be used in many ways, not just tourism, though the extra tourism is obviously only extra tourism, with the possible advantages stated above, as well as possible cultural victory.

I disagree on Brazil. They can do lots of non-CV related stuff with their bonuses. Great Artists can go into Golden Ages (which is good for pretty much everything) and Great Writers and Brazilwood Camps can go into policies. Getting through Rationalism and/or your Ideology fast is also important for Science and Domination victories.

Tourism leads to ideological pressure which can eat into a rivals happiness and may even flip cities (not likely against Deity AI, but still) and you need it to prevent them from doing the same to you.

The main purpose of Tourism is to win a CV, but it does generate some small bonuses in the mean time. The most practical use is to counteract public opinion unhappiness, since if you can reach the same level of influence with other civs as they have over you, you won't receive any. Reducing the population/resistance penalty can be helpful in certain circumstances, but rarely decisive.

Also remember that for each tier of influence you climb relative to another civilization (Exotic, Familiar, Influential etc) you get innate bonuses. Copied from fall patch notes:

Tourism: Further Benefits from Tourism when Influential with another Civ
Science (from Trade Routes)
Familiar: +1 Science per trade route
Popular: +2 Science per trade route
Influential: +3 Science per trade route
Dominant: +4 Science per trade route

Diplomacy/Espionage
Familiar: Just 1 turn to Establish Surveillance in influenced civ's cities
Popular: Surveillance boost (from above) plus Spies operate at an effective rank 1 level higher than actual rank in influenced civ's allied city states
Influential: Surveillance boost (from above) plus Spies operate at an effective rank 1 levels higher than actual rank in influenced civ's cities and allied city states
Dominant: Surveillance boost (from above) plus Spies operate at an effective rank 2 levels higher than actual rank in influenced civ's cities and allied city states

Conquest
Familiar: -25% reduction in Unrest time and Population loss
Popular: -50% reduction in Unrest time and Population loss
Influential: -75% reduction in Unrest time and Population loss
Dominant: no Unrest time; no Population lost

Brazil leans heavily towards Cultural Victory, but it's not just its UA doing so.

You can still go for other forms such as Diplomatic for the achievement, but in this case you need to remember NOT to build Hotels or else you are likely to reach an accidental Cultural victory before your intended Diplomatic one.

Also as Brazil, you can go conquering, but again if its late game it could also trigger an accidental Cultural victory from your UU increasing the GA counter.

Even for science victory as Brazil, don't bulb Great Artists in late game, or again you'll trigger an accidental Cultural victory.

France is more balanced, you are much less likely to accidentally get a cultural victory when perusing something else as them.

Thanks everyone, this has been very illuminating. I think I need to try and be more aggressive with tourism. I do get some glee from notifications that an AIs had to flip ideologies. Unfortunately, it is usually hard to really appreciate the effects. Sometimes my diplomat displays rebels next to the enemy capital, but I sure wish it was easier to see more than those six hexes!

The explanations about how high tourism helps a domination steam roll is pretty obvious in hindsight, so I should have picked up on that. I have not tried a tourism assisted domination victory, but it sounds like fun! Mostly I had noticed people complaining about CV interrupting their dom runs.

Japper007 said:

I disagree on Brazil. They can do lots of non-CV related stuff with their bonuses. Great Artists can go into Golden Ages (which is good for pretty much everything) and Great Writers and Brazilwood Camps can go into policies. Getting through Rationalism and/or your Ideology fast is also important for Science and Domination victories.

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Those are reasons why culture is important to non-CV games. Which, of course, I agree with. None of those are why tourism is important to non-CV games. Brazil has a good culture buff, but their buff to tourism is even stronger.

Tourism leads to ideological pressure which can eat into a rivals happiness and may even flip cities (not likely against Deity AI, but still) and you need it to prevent them from doing the same to you.

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Soffacet said:

The main purpose of Tourism is to win a CV, but it does generate some small bonuses in the mean time. The most practical use is to counteract public opinion unhappiness, since if you can reach the same level of influence with other civs as they have over you, you won't receive any. Reducing the population/resistance penalty can be helpful in certain circumstances, but rarely decisive.

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I have definitely been missing out on how a comparable levels of tourism fights back against an AI civ with high tourism. I had only been paying attention to culture as a defense, so I need to watch this more closely.

Johnpecan said:

Also remember that for each tier of influence you climb relative to another civilization (Exotic, Familiar, Influential etc) you get innate bonuses. Copied from fall patch notes...

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Thanks, that list is the first I have seen for help with SV.

Do the spy buffs go beyond Level 3, or does it cap out?

beetle said:

I have definitely been missing out on how a comparable levels of tourism fights back against an AI civ with high tourism. I had only been paying attention to culture as a defense, so I need to watch this more closely.

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Using culture alone to fight tourism is like using walls and castles alone to defend against attack.

Just to further to comparison between culture/tourism and military.

If no one launches an offensive, culture alone might do ok. If someone is sending everything they have at you, you need that tourism to counter theirs, just as you need units to counter theirs on attack. You don't even need a lot. Exotic comes at just 10%, which you can get without much effort at all. I find it takes little effort to reach the 30% mark for familiar in most cases.

beetle said:

Do the spy buffs go beyond Level 3, or does it cap out?

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The buffs cap out at Level 3 (time to research/1.5). You want to send your lvl1 & lvl2 scouts to civs you have influence/dominance over culturally to train them up quicker (lvl1 = lvl3 at dominant, lv2 = lvl3 & lvl1 = lvl2 at influential). Once they hit lvl3 they are better off elsewhere.

The bonus also stacks with Autocracy's industrial espionage. So at dominant if something takes 48 turns to research normally, a lvl 1 scout takes (48/1.5)/2 turns = 16 turns.

Rooftrellen said:

If no one launches an offensive, culture alone might do ok. If someone is sending everything they have at you, you need that tourism to counter theirs, just as you need units to counter theirs on attack.

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Except that if an AI is getting close to Influential on you, and thus close to ending the game, the priority flips again back to focusing on culture.

beetle said:

Except that if an AI is getting close to Influential on you, and thus close to ending the game, the priority flips again back to focusing on culture.

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I'd say the focus switches to the only other way to hurt other civs. Time to build up an invasion force and take a capital

Johnpecan said:

Conquest...
Influential: -75% reduction in Unrest time and Population loss
Dominant: no Unrest time; no Population lost

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The reduction in Unrest time is certainly a perk, but doesn't the lower Population loss actually make things more difficult, at least in the short term? More citizens == more unhappiness.

you can always starve it out a bit with TP spam