Post Patch: Worker First

You read it here first. Discuss.

After being scolded to keep things on this site to Strategy and Tips I still favor stealing all my workers. I know the more workers you have the better but I still play this game with very few workers alot of games. I just can't get in the habit of building a worker for 14-18 turns when I can build 2 scouts for 10-14 turns and go on a mission to immigrate workers. I still am a big fan of DOWing a close CS right from the get go and worker farming. It does not always work and I always have 1 worker per city or less but I find that it does not matter for winning the game. I do find that it matters if you want faster win rates.

The advanatage of 2 scouts vs. 1 worker (IMHO) is by far the better play. Perhaps if they changed the game where it was not possible to steal workers I would seriously think about going worker first. Ofcourse I could decide not to steal any workers as a rule but I do not see myself following such a rule.

I haven't played a lot since the patch.

Could you explain what changed concerning worker acquisition ?

Maybe he refers to the fact that instead of building the monument (which you got for free with Tradition) you built a worker? Now you must build a monument instead of a worker because the free monument comes much later?

Anyway, most of the games on Immortal and deity you can still keep stealing them from AI and one CS. I do not see any changes regarding that.

For me, there is no advantage in trying to forge an alliance with a religious or militaristic CS, so if I haven't met any AI yet, I take the gold and/or relics, and DoW. I'm like Mao Zedong in the Scorsese film, 'Kundun', spitefully walking through the beautiful mandalas made from dyed butter.

This I do so I have an XP farm, and a source of at least 1 worker. Post-patch religion is even harder to get on Deity, which I play on, so I don't think 'Oh nice, Jerusalem, they might help me found Tengriism' - I think 'Ooh nice, an XP farm'.

Likewise, if I am walking by an AI's lands and there is 1 or more workers (or, even better, settlers) up for grabs, it seems like a no-brainer. The programming is so bad that in 45 turns I'll probably have a good shout at a DoF.

Maybe when I am as good at the game as the MadDjinns, Moriartes and Peddroelms of the world, who can win a whole lot more of the time than I can without overly stressing their grey matter, then maybe I can 'self-regulate' not to steal workers. Hell, on Immortal and below you waste time waiting for them anyway, so there's no point.

To this end, building a worker first seems like an absolute waste of time. Even if I will try for Stonehenge (which is even harder to get post-patch, but if surrounded by 4 or 5 choppable forests in a city location with few other benefits and little room for expansion, is possibly a good gambit), then I will build Monument first (or archer if I popped an Archery ruin).

Hell, I went 'Monument, Worker' even before the patch because if you don't pop a culture ruin you can be waiting aaaaaaaaaages for an increase in culture.

I can't think of ANY reason to build a worker first. If you did, it would be at serious risk of barb attack, would only probably have farms to build for the first 8-10 turns until it can start prepping those forests etc.

TLDR: For most games I go Scout, Monument, Scout. If I want to use an early worker, it's Monument, Worker, Scout.

Worker steal happens too late, if at all. I mean how long does it take to make a worker if you are on production focus? You can have 1 or 2 tiles improved by the time it takes a CS to get a worker out.

Worker first allows a second settler much sooner and the new Tradition tree demands it.

nothing has changed since patch.

worker should still get stolen in sp and tradtion/lib mix still wins mp

In my last 10 games, I doubt there was a time when I didn't steal a worker before T25. Granted you could build one and put him to work before that, but he would be vulnerable, since Warrior will be scouting at least a little bit, and you'll be losing out on Culture ruins, increased pop, etc.

The speed at which you can produce settlers depends more on the dirt than on workers, though right?

If you can make a video demonstrating an objectively-better experience on a given map going Worker first vs. Worker steal, then we have something to discuss in more depth.

Worker stealing is worth it when you can steal but when you get caught and lose your unit to another civilization it is not.

@budweiser

normally you want to steal your workers from your neighbours and if there are non available (very rare on Deity) you go for CS fishing or get your 3rd to 6th worker from the CS where it is totally ok that they come a bit later than the normal worker steal

in SP i think its just not worth to build a worker if you can steal one in any way (if you are alone on an island without any CS you should build one but otherwise i dont think so...)

I tried 4 practice games with a worker first build -- for whatever reason, I really wanted this to work. (Maybe Civ IV nostalgia?)

All four games (Immortal) I found myself much much farther behind by t115 (0AD) than I ever have been before. (And I have played post patch games using my normal strategy/build order -- so I feel certain that is due to worker first, and not the new Trad. policies).

Maybe someone much wiser than me can figure a way to make this work reliably, but like tommynt said :

tommynt said:

nothing has changed since patch.

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The latest patch actually made work steal even more effective than it used to be.
(Technically you had the same possibility, but with the patch the negative diplomatic modifier for an early city state worker steal is a lot lower than it used to be and so your trades aren't as likely to suffer.)

So fastest turn times to complete the game continues to be that way when you want a worker before a monument / granary.

Note that Granary before Worker gives more food and in addition a side effect of the latest patch is to make hand building a Monument in the capital when going Tradition much more desirable, so this is also decreased the value of the worker first tactic.

joncnunn said:

The latest patch actually made work steal even more effective than it used to be.
(Technically you had the same possibility, but with the patch the negative diplomatic modifier for an early city state worker steal is a lot lower than it used to be and so your trades aren't as likely to suffer.)

So fastest turn times to complete the game continues to be that way when you want a worker before a monument / granary.

Note that Granary before Worker gives more food and in addition a side effect of the latest patch is to make hand building a Monument in the capital when going Tradition much more desirable, so this is also decreased the value of the worker first tactic.

Click to expand...

Agreed. The need for an early monument makes worker stealing or two much more enticing than losing 10-12 turns building one that would be spent on well....that monument, an archer, or settler

I tend to think the optimum build order is close to this

No religion

1)scout
2)Monument
3)Worker or Granary
If you have 2 or more wheat/bananna/deer then granary is the clear winner. If only 1 of these bonus resources I thin it is a toss-up between the two. If no bonus resources I tend to think the worker is better. Also factor in how much forest their is in your city radius. chopping a forest for 20 hammers can then be used to speed up the granary (a small capital will usually have a production of about 6 so a chopped forest will save about 3 turns).

3 turns is a pretty big saving in the early game as the sooner you break through that annoying set of basic buildings the sooner you can start producing caravans, wonders or settlers.

If you're going for a religion you obviously want a shrine in their at somepoint. This depends largely on your difficulty level. At Diety arguably you want a shrine before a monument. At emperor, immortal or below I think you can afford to delay the shrine a bit as focusing firstly on workers/granaries will mean you have a larger city which can more effectively build Stonehenge or more settlers for more shrines later on.

Making that worker yourself can also get you to work your tiles sooner than having to search for a worker from another civilization or another city state. You'll save yourself a lot of work and physical intervention like this and you can get your tiles improved a lot sooner. Research the necessary technologies for the tile that needs to be worked on in your capital. So for example, if your capital is next to jungles or forests, then you research straight to bronze working because your worker will get to work sooner on the nearby jungle and forest tiles. Researching calendar if you have resources that need a plantation is also another thing you can do if you build a worker and want to get it working asap.

reddishrecue said:

Making that worker yourself can also get you to work your tiles sooner than having to search for a worker from another civilization or another city state. You'll save yourself a lot of work and physical intervention like this and you can get your tiles improved a lot sooner. Research the necessary technologies for the tile that needs to be worked on in your capital. So for example, if your capital is next to jungles or forests, then you research straight to bronze working because your worker will get to work sooner on the nearby jungle and forest tiles. Researching calendar if you have resources that need a plantation is also another thing you can do if you build a worker and want to get it working asap.

Click to expand...

Yeah I've actually realised too that if you get a worker to your new size 1 city the benefits can be enormous. A new size 1 city without a palace typically has a production around 2. That takes roughly 20 turns to produce a shrine or monument. Chopping just 1 forest to speed up that initial building is a real benefit.

Before scouts??

It's madness. Scouts give you piles of gold from meeting city-states, goodie hut rewards, and also they give you WORKERS when you steal them. The later you scout, the less gold (and faith!) you'll get from city-states.

reddishrecue said:

Making that worker yourself can also get you to work your tiles sooner than having to search for a worker from another civilization or another city state. You'll save yourself a lot of work and physical intervention like this and you can get your tiles improved a lot sooner. Research the necessary technologies for the tile that needs to be worked on in your capital. So for example, if your capital is next to jungles or forests, then you research straight to bronze working because your worker will get to work sooner on the nearby jungle and forest tiles. Researching calendar if you have resources that need a plantation is also another thing you can do if you build a worker and want to get it working asap.

Click to expand...

But if you build worker first and not scout then you miss out on far more in terms of total value. Even if you assume that scout is built first and want to compare the value of an early worker vs. a monument to plow through the policies, it's no contest.

I firmly believe that if anyone records a VidLP of a game to Turn 100 trying a normal build order (Scout, Monument, Scout, etc) vs. a 'worker first' BO, then the difference will be clear.

The fastest deity sience win i have seen on these Forums contained a 4 or 5 Scout start - i think that says it all about how important fast scouting is.

tommynt said:

The fastest deity sience win i have seen on these Forums contained a 4 or 5 Scout start - i think that says it all about how important fast scouting is.

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It was probably also either a very lucky RNG or else playing the Shoshone.