Middle-Earth:Lord of the Mods (XI)

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I too see a problem with the stats from post #15:

The attacker's advantage in each era:

50%
25%
33%
25%

The trend is falling, and to that comes defensive bonuses in cities getting better.

Now, this isn't a problem in and of itself - it's actually not much different from what happens in the epic game, where A/D ratios stay much the same, while defensive bonuses skyrocket (from 25% to 175%, if your city grows to metropolis size and acquires a Civil Defense). The problem comes with little or no artillery - in the Epic game, Arty becomes relatively stronger all the time, and in my estimation actually makes it slightly easier to take cities as time goes by. Here taking cities would only be getting tougher and tougher.

My suggestion would be to have attack factors rise a bit faster than defense ones, forcing players to build defensive improvements or watch their cities grow increasingly vulnerable.
 
Phew, lotsa numbers in there! Damn my subpar intelligence! Anyway...

1. Keep up the good work, as frustrating as it might be, my good gameplay fellows.

2. I have the HOME set (most of it), but not here, so fat lot of good that does us. I will be gone home in July, and have access to the books, but will likely not post at all during that time, nor take the books back. Probably too late by then (???); if not, place orders now for things for me to look up. ;)

3. We would have less names and graphics to worry about if we could consolodate a little bit with more units flagged with both A&D. I support that where appropriate, if others agree. Or is it indeed too late?
 
TLC -- That is exactly what I've been trying to say!!

Mith. My not so local library has a set, which I borrowed, but I don't remember specificaly where it was. takes about an hour to get there, so don't go too to often.

RRnut
 
I have 2 sets of LotR (don't ask), the 50th anniversary edition of the Hobbit, The Silmarillion, Book of Lost Tales Part I and II, The Shaping of ME, Unfinished Tales, and The Lost Road is around here somewhere. I check in every day or two, so if you have a question that might be in any of those books, fire away!
 
Hmmm... Intresting debate on a/d values... at this point I dont have an opinion on it so I'll let you fight it out
 
Nolododan,

Do you remeber something in one of those books about the division and makeup of the noldorian army as it came out of Valinor? Only read it once and am trying to recall something about that. if so, what book was it in? Would be a good base for names for Noldorian units.

RRnut
 
Originally posted by RRnut
Nolododan,

Do you remeber something in one of those books about the division and makeup of the noldorian army as it came out of Valinor? Only read it once and am trying to recall something about that. if so, what book was it in? Would be a good base for names for Noldorian units.

RRnut
Click to expand...

I don't think that Tolkien ever conceived of that. The closest I can get is that about 90-95% of the Noldor left Valinor, and that 80-90% of those made it to ME (some in Fingolfin's host were killed crossing the Helcaraxë). I would further guess that 30-40% were Fëanor's troops, and that 60-70% were Fingolfin's. Hope it helps.

EDIT: Upon further reflection, I can make a couple guesses as to the troop types present. The vast majority would have been swordsmen/spearmen mix, of course, mostly swordsmen. They probably also had a small contingent of cavalry and a larger number of archers.
 
PCHighway added a lot of things to the civs tab today :thumbsup:, with some very vocal input from me. ;)

I also made one of the resources that's needed: mushrooms.
 
Beware the Ides of March!
Well, that’s what I would have said six days ago if I finished the gamma by then. But hey, who’s complaining?

The gamma theoretically is finished. I am way to tired to deal with any **** that may pop up when trying to test it, so I will save that for tomorrow. :)
Once the gamma is finished, I will burn it on a CD in case something goes wrong, and\or send it to someone else. Remember, the gamma is not a beta (no ‘real’ things added), but it is something to work on. Things should go a lot faster after tomorrow. I had to reinstall Civ3 and c3c, but everything is working ok now. Thanks to Mrtn the civilizations are complete (except for a finalized city and leaders). I still need to decide on some leaderheads.
We have no leaders for these civilizations:

Arnor-
Numenor-
Sindar-
Moriquendi-
Southrons-

Arnor and the Harad are really the only problem there, as the rest have plenty to choose from. I’m going to let Mithadan argue with himself on which leaders should be chosen. Keep in mind that the leaders should come from the golden age of that civ. No ‘late third age’ Dunedain chieftains for a leader of Arnor! ;)

Where were we with the units? I’ve been turned around it seems.
The Last Conformist-
The trend is falling, and to that comes defensive bonuses in cities getting better.

Now, this isn't a problem in and of itself - it's actually not much different from what happens in the epic game, where A/D ratios stay much the same, while defensive bonuses skyrocket (from 25% to 175%, if your city grows to metropolis size and acquires a Civil Defense). The problem comes with little or no artillery - in the Epic game, Arty becomes relatively stronger all the time, and in my estimation actually makes it slightly easier to take cities as time goes by. Here taking cities would only be getting tougher and tougher.

My suggestion would be to have attack factors rise a bit faster than defense ones, forcing players to build defensive improvements or watch their cities grow increasingly vulnerable.
Click to expand...
That sounds fine to me, but we can’t decide where the units appear without a tech tree. I envisioned something more or less the same as civ3, in fact I would suggest we added two more defenders, which act as a expensive go-between for 2-3 and 3-4. For instance:

Defense Unit 1 (2)
Defense Unit 2 (4)
Defense Unit 2b (5)
Defense Unit 3 (6)
Defense Unit 3b (7)
Defense Unit 4 (8)

But then other races would not have this, and it might throw the game off balance. Embryodead, just how much (if any) would a player need to pay when upgrading units that don’t go up in shields? (for example) When upgrading a unit that costs 20 shields, and 2 defense, to a unit that costs 20 shields, but has 3 defense?

This is where we are with the mannish offense and defense line. Tell me if you guys agree they are ok, then we can move one to Cavalry and Archers. If everyone agrees, I’ll post the my thoughts on those two lines tomorrow.
Code: 
[b][u]1st Era Offensive[/b][/u]					[b][u]1st Era Defender[/b][/u]
Attack:		3				Attack:		1
Defense:		2				Defense:		2
Movement:		1				Movement:		1
Shields:		30				Shields:		20
Extra:		+1HPB				Extra:		+1HPB
	
[b][u]2nd Era Offensive[/b][/u]					[b][u]2nd Era Defender[/b][/u]
Attack:		6				Attack:		2
Defense:		2				Defense:		4
Movement:		1				Movement:		1
Shields:		50				Shields:		40
Extra:		+1HPB				Extra:		+1HPB

[b][u]3rd Era Offensive[/b][/u]					[b][u]3rd Era Defender[/b][/u]
Attack:		9				Attack:		3
Defense:		4				Defense:		6
Movement:		1				Movement:		1
Shields:		80				Shields:		60
Extra:		+1HPB				Extra:		+1HPB

[b][u]4th Era Offensive[/b][/u]					[b][u]4th Era Defender[/b][/u]
Attack:		12				Attack:		4
Defense:		6				Defense:		8
Movement:		1				Movement:		1
Shields:		100				Shields:		80
Extra:		+1HPB				Extra:		+1HPB

Again, sorry for taking so long on the gamma, I had a lot more than I had originally thought:

[completed:]
---Civilopedia Entries---
Culture Groups
Technologies
Resources (18)
Citizen Jobs (26)
Terrain=Resources\Entries (14)
Units
Diplomats and Spies
Era's
---Finalize---
Worker Job Entries
Click to expand...
Nice Mushrooms Mrtn:goodjob:!
 
Embryodead, just how much (if any) would a player need to pay when upgrading units that don’t go up in shields?
Click to expand...
I'm not a DL of embryodead, but I can answer this anyway. ;) The shield cost is the only thing deciding upgrade costs, so this unit would get a free update. Personally I'm against it, I think a better unit should cost more, at least a little bit. Remember we can have very specialized costs for units (an archer for 18 shields? Sure!).

Regarding that unit code, do you mean that all mannish units should get +1 HP? :eek:
 
PCH,


As far as the relative stregnths of those units above, they look a lot better then previous posts. I still like the idea of having the mannish unit lines start a 3, and still like the idea of having more differentiation in mannish units (I.E. H/M/L unit lines) but can live with those as a base for the gamma.

Is the gamma edition that your'e referring to just a .biq file? would it be possible then to post this on the thread?

RRnut

P.S. thank you very much for all that you are doing!!!:goodjob: :goodjob: :goodjob: ;) whenever it comes out is fine.
 
mrtn-
I'm not a DL of embryodead, but I can answer this anyway.
Click to expand...
Heh!
Ok, then. If we did add those two ‘go-between’ mannish defense units, then we would probably lower the cost of the unit by 5 shields?
mrtn-
Regarding that unit code, do you mean that all mannish units should get +1 HP? :eek:
Click to expand...
All the offense and defensive units. Mannish archers would not receive this bonus. We had decided that Men, Elves, and Dwarves were stronger than the other races (physically) in combat, than other races.
Don’t forget, in our earlier defensive lines, all mannish units (except offensive) ones got the bonus. That basically saying that the only units getting a HPB are the defensive ones. That won’t be generally accepted, especially when they have a +2HPB above the offensive infantry.
RRnut-
As far as the relative strengths of those units above, they look a lot better then previous posts. I still like the idea of having the mannish unit lines start a 3, and still like the idea of having more differentiation in mannish units (I.E. H/M/L unit lines) but can live with those as a base for the gamma.
Click to expand...
I don’t think having the average civilizations start with 3 defense will give us more room for race modification. Having 2 defense units coming for the Orcs and Hobbits is easily correctable by making their 2 defense units come later, this is more practical, too, IMO.
RRnut-
Is the gamma edition that you’re referring to just a .biq file? would it be possible then to post this on the thread?
Click to expand...
‘Fraid not. I would have to post the entire file folder. Which, without leaderhead and unit art, is 33.7mb. It would need those leaderheads to run properly.
 
Originally posted by PCHighway
Heh!
Ok, then. If we did add those two ‘go-between’ mannish defense units, then we would probably lower the cost of the unit by 5 shields? ...
Click to expand...
Do you mean raise, or am I just stoopefied by smoking carrots?
 
No, the idea was to have an expensive ‘go between’ the two units. Expensive implies that it will cost a lot, no? ;)
So therefore the two ‘go-betweens’ would cost as much (or close) to the units they would upgrade to. The idea is that it would make it expensive to build and upgrade defensive units. Imagine that you only could upgrade half of your defenses, for instance. You would then have two defensive levels, some good, some not so good. On the flip side, the gap isn't as big. i.e. you won't have to worry about being completly overwhelmed by a 12 attack unit against your 6 defense unit. 7 may not seem like much more, but who knows, it could help your odds.
 
Mannish cavalry and archer proposals.
Keep in mind cavalry comes around the same time as the offensive infantry, which come after defensive infantry. Archers should come with the defensive units themselves, or slightly before.

Code: 
[b][u]1st Era Cavalry[/b][/u]					[b][u]1st Era Missile[/b][/u]
Attack:		3				Attack:		3
Defense:		2				Defense:		1
Movement:		2				Movement:		1
Shields:		30				Shields:		20
Extra:		+1HPB				Extra:		0 Range Bombard
	
[b][u]2nd Era Cavalry[/b][/u]					[b][u]2nd Era Missile[/b][/u]
Attack:		6				Attack:		6
Defense:		2				Defense:		1
Movement:		2				Movement:		1
Shields:		50				Shields:		40
Extra:		+1HPB				Extra:		0 Range Bombard

[b][u]3rd Era Cavalry[/b][/u]					[b][u]3rd Era Missile[/b][/u]
Attack:		9				Attack:		9
Defense:		4				Defense:		2
Movement:		2				Movement:		1
Shields:		80				Shields:		60
Extra:		+1HPB	*blitz			Extra:		0 Range Bombard

[b][u]4th Era Cavalry[/b][/u]					[b][u]4th Era Missile[/b][/u]
Attack:		10				Attack:		12
Defense:		5				Defense:		4
Movement:		3				Movement:		1
Shields:		90				Shields:		80
Extra:		+1HPB	*blitz			Extra:		0 Range Bombard
 
The costs are wacky. A 10 attack unit with +1 HP and a 3 move blitz is better than a 12 attack infantry, archer or not.
Why do you start with a 3/2/2 cav? I think the logical would be a 2/1/2, as the vanilla horseman. Especially if it costs the same as the swordsman! :eek:

How about lowering the attack values of the cavalry substantially? Attacks could be the same as the defense values of the defenders. I e 2, 4, 6 and 8, respectively. The cavalry have the bonus of being able to retreat, after all, and that's a big bonus.
Like this:
1st era: 2/1/2
2nd era: 4/2/2
3rd era: 6/3/2
4th era: 8/4/2(! not 3)

I don't think all men should get blitzing cavalry, this should be exclusive for Rohan IMO. Blitz is very good.

How big is the zero range bombard? Half the attack, as usual?

BTW, I think that the 2nd era offensive should have 6/3/1, not 6/2/1.
 
Re: blitz. that is far more effective when the unit has a decent attack advantage, I.E. Tanks vs Infantry and Cavalry vs Musketman. When you have a situation with something like knights vs muskets, where the cavalry is lower then any equalized defense value, then blitz is not very important. Otherwise i agree with mrtn on cavalry values.

Re: other cavalry values. I assigned most civs at least one blitzing cavalry. Gondor gets the strongest knight unit in the 4th age, while Rohan gets the only 3 move unit. Probably quite appropriate.

As far as zero range bombard, I think that this should be at least equal to attack power or slightly less to make a signifiicant difference.

RRnut
 
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