KMadCandy
giggling permanoob
what follows is a typical too-long description of what has me completely befuddled about an aspect of the game, in this case the 'you have traded with our worst enemy' penalty. i saved and reloaded and did not get the penalty on the reload, and i'm not sure why.
i'm playing a game right now with more civs than i usually do, but at an easy level, to learn more about how to manipulate them etc. the politics of who to be friends with is really important in civ4 and i am not good at that part.
i started out on a continent with alex and monty. i kept them friends with me until i was ready to kill them, that's easy enough. they were both dead pretty early considering i don't tend to go to war early, and my land is my own. then i basically beelined to navigation to trade with another continent for health resources i don't have. i don't want to get the 'you have traded with our worst enemies' penalty with anybody, that one drives me up a tree, so i made sure i watched who liked who. 4 civs over there, 2 were buddhist, they were kinda buddies, 2 had no religion, they were cautious with everybody. i gave them all a bunch of techs to catch them up with me, and sent my hindu missionaries around, etc. now 3 of them are hindu, only the founder of buddhism (huayna) is sticking with it.
a few turns ago, julius declared war on brennus. their only modifiers at the time were +2 each for brothers and sisters of the faith. what made me laugh is that during the war, julius adopted OR so then brennus had a new +3 modifier towards julius.
i still wanted to give them all several techs to catch them up with me, since i really am playing at too low a level. so i saved it before the next round of 'here's your free knowledge guys', knowing that the war might put a crimp in that plan and i might have to bribe one to go for peace or something. when i talked to brennus, in the opening words he said 'we would encourage you to stop trading with our worst enemy, julius caesar.' i thought oh man, i haven't given these to julius yet, well let's see if a gift counts as a trade, i figured it did. sure enough, next turn, had that big fat red 'you have traded with our worst enemies' penalty with brennus.
so, i went back to the save and reloaded, and this time i gave the techs to julius first, and then to brennus. brennus did NOT say anything about trading with his worst enemy this time. and even now, several turns later, it hasn't come up again, and i have no penalty with him for trading with his worst enemy.
btw i have had an ongoing resource trade with julius since before the war started. brennus hasn't ever asked me in a dialogue that he started, where i have to accept or reject, to stop trading. i already knew that those dialogues give you the penalty. the only differences in the case where i didn't get the penalty is that i #1 gave the techs to julius before i gave them to brennus and #2 brennus didn't suggest that i stop trading with his enemy in the opening words.
i didn't even suspect that reloading can make them not notice, or not get mad at, a trade/gift you do with their enemy. or maybe it was that i did it in a different order. what is up with that? would that be a random thing, that since i didn't preserve the random seed it just rolled differently this time and brennus decided to not pressure me? or did the fact that i gave the techs to julius before brennus really matter, and you just have to be psychic about which one is going to be madder, so that you know who to trade with first?
the thing that has me really boggled is that i'd always thought that the words they say when you call them up for a chat were just filler. that there's no difference between 'ho ho i have a horse archer' and 'hello KMad what can i do for you?' maybe in some cases they do matter and can trigger penalties themselves? now that i'm typing it, i wish i'd kept going with that save long enough to not give julius the techs, but keep the resource trade we have going, to see if even that gave me the penalty. maybe it's that the reload made a different dice roll so brennus just decided not to say that this time, and it was the saying of it that started the penalty, and that just keeping my resource trade and open borders would have stuck me with the -4, without any new gifts/trades after his suggestion in the dialogue.
i really get frustrated with that worst enemy thing. i just can't sort it out and in games that last a long time (which i like) and have a lot of civs (which i'm scared to try), it can have a big impact. the penalty lasts forever and i can't predict who will be whose enemy, especially not before i even meet the one that resents the guy i traded with earlier! in my last team game with hubby he had a -4 "you have traded with our worst enemy!!!' attitude to me forever (well, ever since i first noticed it). we're a permanent alliance that's hardcoded to share the benefits from world wonders but that penalty still kicks in and stays forever??? heck for all i know, the AI knew we were married and that sometimes (but not often) i consider him my worst enemy *giggle*.
i'm playing a game right now with more civs than i usually do, but at an easy level, to learn more about how to manipulate them etc. the politics of who to be friends with is really important in civ4 and i am not good at that part.
i started out on a continent with alex and monty. i kept them friends with me until i was ready to kill them, that's easy enough. they were both dead pretty early considering i don't tend to go to war early, and my land is my own. then i basically beelined to navigation to trade with another continent for health resources i don't have. i don't want to get the 'you have traded with our worst enemies' penalty with anybody, that one drives me up a tree, so i made sure i watched who liked who. 4 civs over there, 2 were buddhist, they were kinda buddies, 2 had no religion, they were cautious with everybody. i gave them all a bunch of techs to catch them up with me, and sent my hindu missionaries around, etc. now 3 of them are hindu, only the founder of buddhism (huayna) is sticking with it.
a few turns ago, julius declared war on brennus. their only modifiers at the time were +2 each for brothers and sisters of the faith. what made me laugh is that during the war, julius adopted OR so then brennus had a new +3 modifier towards julius.
i still wanted to give them all several techs to catch them up with me, since i really am playing at too low a level. so i saved it before the next round of 'here's your free knowledge guys', knowing that the war might put a crimp in that plan and i might have to bribe one to go for peace or something. when i talked to brennus, in the opening words he said 'we would encourage you to stop trading with our worst enemy, julius caesar.' i thought oh man, i haven't given these to julius yet, well let's see if a gift counts as a trade, i figured it did. sure enough, next turn, had that big fat red 'you have traded with our worst enemies' penalty with brennus.
so, i went back to the save and reloaded, and this time i gave the techs to julius first, and then to brennus. brennus did NOT say anything about trading with his worst enemy this time. and even now, several turns later, it hasn't come up again, and i have no penalty with him for trading with his worst enemy.
btw i have had an ongoing resource trade with julius since before the war started. brennus hasn't ever asked me in a dialogue that he started, where i have to accept or reject, to stop trading. i already knew that those dialogues give you the penalty. the only differences in the case where i didn't get the penalty is that i #1 gave the techs to julius before i gave them to brennus and #2 brennus didn't suggest that i stop trading with his enemy in the opening words.
i didn't even suspect that reloading can make them not notice, or not get mad at, a trade/gift you do with their enemy. or maybe it was that i did it in a different order. what is up with that? would that be a random thing, that since i didn't preserve the random seed it just rolled differently this time and brennus decided to not pressure me? or did the fact that i gave the techs to julius before brennus really matter, and you just have to be psychic about which one is going to be madder, so that you know who to trade with first?
the thing that has me really boggled is that i'd always thought that the words they say when you call them up for a chat were just filler. that there's no difference between 'ho ho i have a horse archer' and 'hello KMad what can i do for you?' maybe in some cases they do matter and can trigger penalties themselves? now that i'm typing it, i wish i'd kept going with that save long enough to not give julius the techs, but keep the resource trade we have going, to see if even that gave me the penalty. maybe it's that the reload made a different dice roll so brennus just decided not to say that this time, and it was the saying of it that started the penalty, and that just keeping my resource trade and open borders would have stuck me with the -4, without any new gifts/trades after his suggestion in the dialogue.
i really get frustrated with that worst enemy thing. i just can't sort it out and in games that last a long time (which i like) and have a lot of civs (which i'm scared to try), it can have a big impact. the penalty lasts forever and i can't predict who will be whose enemy, especially not before i even meet the one that resents the guy i traded with earlier! in my last team game with hubby he had a -4 "you have traded with our worst enemy!!!' attitude to me forever (well, ever since i first noticed it). we're a permanent alliance that's hardcoded to share the benefits from world wonders but that penalty still kicks in and stays forever??? heck for all i know, the AI knew we were married and that sometimes (but not often) i consider him my worst enemy *giggle*.
