Brave New World Patch notes! Version 1.0.3.276

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Its not a problem. Some trees are meant to start strong, some ends strong. Getting more culture early vs getting more culture late will even out because you will eventually end up with the same number of policies.

You forget that the tradition player profits longer from those policies, because he unlocks them earlier. Early benefits tend to steamroll.

The mathematics behind it also doesn't change the fact that the huge discrepancy in the immediate usefulness of the two openers feels wrong.
The tradition opener is so strong that I almost always want it as one of my first policies. Taking the weak liberty opener instead feels like a huge sacrifice.

It might even be that taking the tradition opener before going down the liberty tree doesn't slow the completion of Liberty down! It does double the initial culture output of a capital with monument, so it might be the case. I can't prove it due to lack of math skills, however.

Even if it doesn't do this, there is still the problem that Liberty has 2 policies which get weaker every turn (free worker/settler). There is no point taking them later on when producing those units is trivial.
 
A nice lil' patch!

I like the reduced warmonger penalties in the earlier eras -- they were violent times after all!

The branch manipulations within Tradition and Piety are interesting and will certainly delay/hasten the acquisition of the powerful policies at the end of the trees.

I'm also surprised they decided to throw cocoa and bison in; especially bison, since as a bonus resource, it wasn't really needed since all holes are already filled. Oh well, grass and plains overall are now a tiny bit more fertile. :)

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Though, Firaxis, I found a new bug in AssignStartingPlots.lua with your new additions:

GetListOfAllowableLuxuriesAtCitySite

Code:
local allowed_luxuries = table.fill(false, [COLOR="Red"]35[/COLOR]);

You need to increase the size of this table to 45 too, just as you did with the other ones at the top of the file, shown below.

Code:
amounts_of_resources_placed = table.fill(0, 45), 
luxury_assignment_count = table.fill(0, 45),
luxury_low_fert_compensation = table.fill(0, 45),

Since the new resources are added at the end of the BNW Resources XML file, Cocoa has an index number of 41, and you've decided to include it in this function. It will always be nil and some city-states may never get a luxury or some civs will never get their 2nd luxury type at starts.
EDIT: Actually, what would probably really happen is that cocoa would simply never be assigned to city-states or as 2nd luxuries for starts, and is just a waste to include in the function until the table is enlarged.

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Also, I was surprised to see Cocoa added here when the Gods and Kings luxuries are still not present for some reason.

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Additionally, if you want to address another bug which has existed for a long time while you're working in this location:

There really needs to be a check for an existing resource (the existing regional ones placed in the start location) on the tile before the function starts setting resource types to "true" for that tile.

Code:
if plot:GetResourceType(-1) == -1 then

Because, if that one tile is the only one useable by the randomly chosen luxury, it will never be placed and will be ignored if another luxury already exists there.

I imagine this was an oversight because the function was probably originally only used for city-states earlier during development (who don't have other luxuries placed in their areas - and other resource types come later.), until it was then also used for 2nd luxury type placement at major civ starts.

Hi Barathor

Great stuff for noticing these bugs, are these issues we can simply fix by editing the lines? I have changed the table sizes to -

local allowed_luxuries = table.fill(false, 45);

amounts_of_resources_placed = table.fill(0, 45),
luxury_assignment_count = table.fill(0, 45),
luxury_low_fert_compensation = table.fill(0, 45)

I am not sure what to do about the other issues you described below.
 
I started near Bison in my current game and, unless the Granary tooltip accidentally wasn't updated, then NO Bison are not affected by it.

Yeah, fired up a game myself. Bison does not benefit from granaries at all, making it a pretty crap bonus resource. I take deer/banana/wheat any day.

Unless next patch gives it a boost. Feels weak big, meaty bison provide so little.
 
Haven't tried a mp game since that patch but viewing actual reviews and from my knowledge it always been a LOT easier to play 5 people games than 6. I don't know why though.

Why an extra player can do so much damage to a game? What is the real difference between 5 and 6 players? As far as i read right now all 5 players game work like a charm but when there is a 6th player the game is litterally unplayable.

And about the patch:

Well yeah a monument start is the way to go now, but Tradition is still superior to Liberty. For sp players that don't care to reload a game until they get a fast culture ruin, well don't be afraid just go for a 2-3 scouts start and the magic will operate in any cases :)
 
Yeah, fired up a game myself. Bison does not benefit from granaries at all, making it a pretty crap bonus resource. I take deer/banana/wheat any day.

Unless next patch gives it a boost. Feels weak big, meaty bison provide so little.

I noticed this, but wondered if they just hadn't updated tooltips. Not that it makes sense for a granary to affect bison, but it doesn't make sense for it to affect bananas or deer either.
 
It might even be that taking the tradition opener before going down the liberty tree doesn't slow the completion of Liberty down!
A small addition to your post, but I did the math on this once, and taking Tradition opener before going through Liberty actually DOES slow you down in finishing Liberty (slightly). I think under most circumstances, opening Tradition would let you have policy 2-5 faster but around policy 5-6 you'd break even and after that you'd be getting target policies later than you would have if you'd opened only Liberty. Of course, you'd still have the benefits of opening Tradition (faster border growth, possibility for building Hanging Gardens, etc.). The impact on finishing time on your first tree will admittedly be rather small, but if you take target times for later trees (for instance, if you intend to go straight Liberty -> Rationalism) opening Tradition first will slow you down significantly in finishing Rationalism.

When all that's been said, I do agree with your points about snowballing, specifically I think a problem with a "late" tree like Liberty is that while it might become more powerful in late game, and even more powerful than Tradition, it often feels like if the cumulative effects of running behind first half of the game will set you so much back that the late-game benefits come too late to make a difference.
 
A small addition to your post, but I did the math on this once, and taking Tradition opener before going through Liberty actually DOES slow you down in finishing Liberty (slightly). I think under most circumstances, opening Tradition would let you have policy 2-5 faster but around policy 5-6 you'd break even and after that you'd be getting target policies later than you would have if you'd opened only Liberty. Of course, you'd still have the benefits of opening Tradition (faster border growth, possibility for building Hanging Gardens, etc.). The impact on finishing time on your first tree will admittedly be rather small, but if you take target times for later trees (for instance, if you intend to go straight Liberty -> Rationalism) opening Tradition first will slow you down significantly in finishing Rationalism.

When all that's been said, I do agree with your points about snowballing, specifically I think a problem with a "late" tree like Liberty is that while it might become more powerful in late game, and even more powerful than Tradition, it often feels like if the cumulative effects of running behind first half of the game will set you so much back that the late-game benefits come too late to make a difference.

that all depends on timings though.

If you normally finish Tradition and have 1-2 policies to 'waste' before opening Rationalism, then taking the tradition opener before Liberty just cuts into that 1-2 pre-rationalism.
 
Moderator Action: Two New Patch Version threads merged.
 
Can you get a chocolate start or is it more of a marble-luxury?


Edit: Got an answer myself. Just got a chocolate start. :D
 
that all depends on timings though.

If you normally finish Tradition Liberty and have 1-2 policies to 'waste' before opening Rationalism, then taking the tradition opener before Liberty just cuts into that 1-2 pre-rationalism.
That is true, obviously.
 
Can you get a chocolate start or is it more of a marble-luxury?


Edit: Got an answer myself. Just got a chocolate start. :D

Sadly, Cocoa seems to be a lesser Citrus since no pantheons/buildings (aside form Oral Tradition) boosts it... If only the chocolate house was added too. But that would make Cocoa OP.

Don't get me wrong, Cocoa is still good. It just feels... ah, never mind. I had plans of starting a "Resource Topic" talking about all the different resource and how some outshine others, but that's that.
 
You forget that the tradition player profits longer from those policies, because he unlocks them earlier. Early benefits tend to steamroll.

The mathematics behind it also doesn't change the fact that the huge discrepancy in the immediate usefulness of the two openers feels wrong.
The tradition opener is so strong that I almost always want it as one of my first policies. Taking the weak liberty opener instead feels like a huge sacrifice.

It might even be that taking the tradition opener before going down the liberty tree doesn't slow the completion of Liberty down! It does double the initial culture output of a capital with monument, so it might be the case. I can't prove it due to lack of math skills, however.

Even if it doesn't do this, there is still the problem that Liberty has 2 policies which get weaker every turn (free worker/settler). There is no point taking them later on when producing those units is trivial.

Well, Tradition is much stronger than Honor and Piety in that department. But Liberty if played right will overwhelm Tradition in the culture per turn department. The whole point of collective rule is for you to build settlers really fast so you can get a minimum of 6 cities by turn 70. Thats a total of 6 culture from opener + 12 cultures from 6 monuments later on. Tradition will never be able to compete with that. Taking Tradition opener before Liberty is what I used to do when I was still figuring out the game. Since then I just find that it is a waste of policies. It slows down my expansion and slows down my 2nd tree, which is usually Piety or Commerce when I am playing Liberty.
 
Contrary to civilopedia, Cocoa also grows in Forests.

Thats a total of 6 culture from opener + 12 cultures from 6 monuments later on. Tradition will never be able to compete with that.

But do you actually get more policies than culture that way? Tradition stays on one city for a while and therefore gets policies much cheaper. Another thing is the massive growth boost to the capital. And how often can you actually build 6 cities that fast, closely together, without ruining your happiness? I rarely see maps where I can see six decent spots for cities right from the start, and aren't you kinda falling behind on the tech due to the penalty?
 
Digested one at a time - wft just happened:

Slight nerf to Tradition, and a boost to Piety (by adding one more prerequisite for Legalism and taking one away from Reformation).

Scale warmonger penalties by era (50% of normal strength in Ancient up to 90% in Industrial; 100% thereafter). Penalties for warmongering vs. City-States halved.



Can the smart people here please discuss these - what just happened. (1) Now can I war all over the place early? (2) what is the effect of this tradition nerf - don't really understand.

Seems to me they boosted religion piety benefits and hurt a tradition open. Smart people?


How does this affect the cultural decision on the value of the liberty settler - if you're not getting the monument for free, what is the incentive to avoid the left side of liberty and push for a free settler and max a quick 4 cities.
 
Moderator Action: Generic patch discussion thread merged
 
The patch has as of yet not been fixed to allow for multiplayer.

Yesterady got a 6 player game all the way to turn 100. Our theory was to not use the in-game chat, it sounds far fetched, but at that point everything else had been tried.

Then two 4 player games crashed at around 400 and 10.

The patch just plain broke the game.
 
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