Ask a Rocket Scientist

What level of protection does it take for an electronic device to function in open space?

I'm not sure - that's a good question. Electronics are at the very edge of my understanding when it comes to physics. My thinking would be none if in a literal vacuum, but not even space is a true vacuum (ironically, but there is space dust and radiation and the like). You would probably need to provide radiation shielding and a sterilized environment if you wanted your electronic device to function well, moreorless.

Why do you think you are a rocket scientist?

I dunno. From Wikipedia:

Wikipedia said:
Rocket science is a colloquial term for aerospace engineering and related fields.

So, I guess you're asking me why I think I'm an aerospace engineer. The answer to that: because I am pretty deeply entrenched in the field and have a small but growing body of experience in the field both in the private sector and in research.

If you want to get technical (inasmuch as it can so be called, as I technically am an aerospace engineer as I am a member of the AIAA) I am an aerospace-engineer-in-training, but given the attrition rates drop sharply after the second year of my program, and that I have already done engineering for money, I'd say it's a distinction without a difference.

Thanks for your thoughts on the space program. My own view is that the Challenger and International Space Station projects were unnecessary diversions. The space probes and the Hubble telescope were more modest endeavors but had a bigger payoff and much more impact. I am wholy in favor of going back to the Moon and for making a trip to Mars. Even though it has been forty years or so since the Apollo missions, I'm not sure what a reasonable target date might be. Perhaps it should be an interntional effort. One thing that amazes me is that we were able to go to the Moon several times and return successfully using technology and methodology (e.g. slide rules) which seems absolutely primitive when compared to what we have today. The rockets themselves don't seem to have changed much though.

I will drink to that! Here's hoping we have colonies on Mars in our lifetime!

Your commentary on the slide rules is also quite amusing. I have had the pleasure of speaking with and listening to individuals involved in the space program, and it is all the more remarkable to think of what they did considering modern engineering's dependence on computers.

Now, computers are handy tools, and inarguably a step forward, but in my opinion it really goes to show how incredible humanity is when at its finest.
 
One thing that amazes me is that we were able to go to the Moon several times and return successfully using technology and methodology (e.g. slide rules) which seems absolutely primitive when compared to what we have today. The rockets themselves don't seem to have changed much though.

I've heard that my first-generation android phone has more computational power than was used in the Apollo missions. Don't know if it's true or not, not sure it matters.

Is it really true that the rockets haven't changed much? Is it still the same fuel, same nozzle technology, and so on? Clearly there have been fundamental advances in probe technology - from electrical generation to onboard decision making to longevity and so on.

One thing that I'd like to hear about from a Rocket Scientist's perspective:

There was a collision between an Iridium communications satellite and an ex-Soviet Cosmos satellite back in early 2009. I followed a lot of the analysis on ArmsControlWonk.com

This event scares me. It seems like it wouldn't take much to start a positive feedback cycle in which a single collision leads to more collisions leading to more debris leading to more collisions, and so on. In short order, we could be imprisoned on Earth by a shell of high speed debris, preventing probes or manned vehicles from escape. Does this possibility ever come up among your peers?
 
I'm not sure - that's a good question. Electronics are at the very edge of my understanding when it comes to physics. My thinking would be none if in a literal vacuum, but not even space is a true vacuum (ironically, but there is space dust and radiation and the like). You would probably need to provide radiation shielding and a sterilized environment if you wanted your electronic device to function well, moreorless.
I can break down what I see as the obstacles, but I have no clue that it would take to overcome each one. Would a cellphone power up in space? would a 500 ft waterproof watch?

One obstacle would be the negative pressure. Obviously electronics won't work if they explode. They also won't work if the plastic metal and silicon stretch at different rates or by amounts.

Another obstacle is space dust and debris. electronics won't work covered in dust, especially conducting dust. But depending on the nature of the dust this may be easy enough to solve by covering it with, say, plastic wrap. And the cold of space may make the common dust issue of cooling a non-issue.

A third hazard is EMPs. electronics aren't impacted by most radiation, unless they melt or some gradual effect changes they physical properties of the material. However if the electric noise is enough, then it will overwhelm the signals in the transistors.
 
I can break down what I see as the obstacles, but I have no clue that it would take to overcome each one. Would a cellphone power up in space? would a 500 ft waterproof watch?

One obstacle would be the negative pressure. Obviously electronics won't work if they explode. They also won't work if the plastic metal and silicon stretch at different rates or by amounts.

This is a non-issue. There is no negative pressure, just pressure close to zero. The only problem would be if there was some air trapped inside, but even then it is just 1bar pressure differential, which shouldn't be an issue for almost all assembles. Solid structures usually take vacuum conditions just fine and don't stretch by a significant amount (the stretching by temperature would be much larger). In Ion trapping experiments people throw all kinds of circuits and delicate structures in a UHV without worrying about the structures. They have to worry far more about the outgassing rates, as if you take the wrong kind of material, you will never get a good vacuum (but that is not the issue in space).

Of course you would have to prevent a destructive air rush during venting, but doing that slowly should not be a problem.

Another obstacle is space dust and debris. electronics won't work covered in dust, especially conducting dust. But depending on the nature of the dust this may be easy enough to solve by covering it with, say, plastic wrap. And the cold of space may make the common dust issue of cooling a non-issue.

I would say, while there is dust in space, it is way less than in a common household.

A third hazard is EMPs. electronics aren't impacted by most radiation, unless they melt or some gradual effect changes they physical properties of the material. However if the electric noise is enough, then it will overwhelm the signals in the transistors.

Yes, you would have to shield the electronics against EMPs. I would guess you could easily build a shield with conducting metal.
But radiation is a much larger issue. Electronics are quite sensitive to radiation as semiconductor technology relies on differences in the doping of the semiconductor. And one way to alter this doping is radiation. So if you don't take countermeasures like shielding and fault tolerant circuits your electronics will quickly stop working.

Another big issue is the temperature. Electronics will only work in a narrow temperature range, because the physical properties of the material heavily depend on the temperature. So if you let a device cool down to 3K it will not work (unless you design it for that temperature). But although space is cold, there is no convection to carry the heat away (just black body radiation). So an electronic device producing more heat than can be radiated will quickly overheat (And it will probably pick up additional heat by absorbing light from the sun). Therefore thermal management is a huge issue in space.

I would guess, if you put a cellphone in space it will power up without problems (there will be no carrier, though...), but it won't work for very long as either temperature or radiation will kill it quickly.
 
What's the vibe on the Space Elevator? I used to be a big fan, but now I'm hearing that the required strength is not only impractical, but potentially impossible?

Additionally, in units of Sun-seconds, how much energy would it require to propel 1.7 million metric tons up to 0.8c and then back down to zero? Please assume that the fuel is onboard, and is a matter/anti-matter mix being used at 50% efficiency (or, since you're a rocket scientist, whatever efficiency you believe is reasonable. As well, since all the hard work has been done, what is energy needed if the target speed was 0.9c? Thanks!

Well I spent some time fiddling with this during lunch today, and I think I have an answer that only requires a few assumptions. I should mention that my background in quantum mechanics is sparse, at best, and my understanding of special relativity, while great by comparison, doesn't really help me in this instance. To make it easier on myself, I ignored the effects of mass/time dilation and solved the problem using good ol' Newtonian mechanics. I'm sorry if that's not what you were looking for!

Now then, on to the problem. As it just so happens, antimatter appears to be an extremely efficient fuel source: by my calculation, it only takes a little over 1 billion kilograms of matter/antimatter mix to produce the energy the sun puts out in one second. "Only."

By comparison, it would take about 43 trillion kilograms of ordinary matter to produce the same amount of energy via nuclear reactions. That's okay, though, because the sun is still about a quadrillion times the size of that.

What this means is that our gigantic rocket only needs a "little" bit of energy to make it to the speed demanded of it; I selected to use energy conservation with the end goal of having mass equal to the rocket (ie all the fuel is used), so to decelerate back down to zero speed all that is missing is a potential energy term for the energy in the matter/antimatter mix. I partially solved the problem taking into account mass lost during flight, using a program I whipped up to solve the implicit mass function (with a simple fixed-point iteration to calculate the work done), but since my preliminary analysis showed less than a 0.01% difference in the answer due to the change of mass (remember that it only takes a little mass to get a lot of energy), I opted to neglect it. (Even taking into account 50% efficiency due to the fuel, matter/antimatter is so excellent that the difference is still negligible for this level of discourse. Now then, if you wanted me to solve this problem with rocket fuel, I'd say it'd take me a fair bit longer. Like, two lunch breaks.)

My answer is 2.5368e-5 Sun-seconds to get to 0.8c and back down again, and 3.2106e-5 Sun-seconds to get to 0.9c and back down again. I am assuming a Sun-second is 3.86e26 Joules.



Everyone else:

I will be sure to chime in on the rest of these questions in the day to follow. I've been a bit busy lately and only had time to drop in and give my answer to El's question. I'll be giving my input on debris armageddon and the dangers that spacebound-electronics must face sometime tomorrow.

Thanks for the interest everyone!
 
This is a non-issue. There is no negative pressure, just pressure close to zero. The only problem would be if there was some air trapped inside, but even then it is just 1bar pressure differential, which shouldn't be an issue for almost all assembles. Solid structures usually take vacuum conditions just fine and don't stretch by a significant amount (the stretching by temperature would be much larger). In Ion trapping experiments people throw all kinds of circuits and delicate structures in a UHV without worrying about the structures. They have to worry far more about the outgassing rates, as if you take the wrong kind of material, you will never get a good vacuum (but that is not the issue in space).

Of course you would have to prevent a destructive air rush during venting, but doing that slowly should not be a problem.



I would say, while there is dust in space, it is way less than in a common household.



Yes, you would have to shield the electronics against EMPs. I would guess you could easily build a shield with conducting metal.
But radiation is a much larger issue. Electronics are quite sensitive to radiation as semiconductor technology relies on differences in the doping of the semiconductor. And one way to alter this doping is radiation. So if you don't take countermeasures like shielding and fault tolerant circuits your electronics will quickly stop working.

Another big issue is the temperature. Electronics will only work in a narrow temperature range, because the physical properties of the material heavily depend on the temperature. So if you let a device cool down to 3K it will not work (unless you design it for that temperature). But although space is cold, there is no convection to carry the heat away (just black body radiation). So an electronic device producing more heat than can be radiated will quickly overheat (And it will probably pick up additional heat by absorbing light from the sun). Therefore thermal management is a huge issue in space.

I would guess, if you put a cellphone in space it will power up without problems (there will be no carrier, though...), but it won't work for very long as either temperature or radiation will kill it quickly.
Thanks for the thorough answer.
 
If I may chime in on that: The required strength is larger than any material available right now offers. Theoretically it is possible, as graphene and carbon nanotubes have the required strength, but as the "nano" in the name implies these materials exist only on the nano- to microscale. So in theory one would just have to scale this up to the required 40000 kilometers. But this scaling is extremely hard because you have to ensure that there are no defects in your not-so-nano-anymore-tube. So you need to build a perfect molecule from like 10^18 atoms and that's far beyond your current capabilities.

Is there anywhere where this is discussed respectably? I wouldn't know where to look for these types of engineering/physics discussions, other than in the lay popular press. I'd be interested in evidence of some type of consensus amongst people who could be reasonably considered 'experts'.

My answer is 2.5368e-5 Sun-seconds to get to 0.8c and back down again, and 3.2106e-5 Sun-seconds to get to 0.9c and back down again. I am assuming a Sun-second is 3.86e26 Joules.

Thanks!
Now, in essence, it's not really that outrageous of a question. The idea of knowing the amount of fuel to get a rocket into orbit (including its fuel) is basically the same maths, right?

Oh, as an aside, I'll give another shout-out to on of my favorite sites for pro-space-development people www.permanent.com is about harvesting near-Earth asteroids.
 
Several video games I have played (Mass Effect, Freelancer, etc.) show space travel through the use of "gates" in space that the ship would fly through in order to gain the speed necessary to travel between planets or star systems.

Does this sort of idea have any realistic premise? Vague, I know, but I'm not sure of the science behind these types of space travel.
 
Is there anywhere where this is discussed respectably? I wouldn't know where to look for these types of engineering/physics discussions, other than in the lay popular press. I'd be interested in evidence of some type of consensus amongst people who could be reasonably considered 'experts'.

Carbon nanostructures are a hot topic in research right now. I am afraid if you want to have accurate, up to date information, you will need to search the research literature on the topic. If you are lucky, you might find a comprehensive review, but these are no compiled very often, so the information might be outdated already.

Because it is such a hot topic, I don't think there is much of a consensus beyond "it might be possible, but we don't really know". Science moves forward by dissent, so a consensus is usually formed after a field has slowed down and the major discoveries have been made and accepted. I don't think this has happened yet on the feasibility of a space elevator based on carbon nanostructures.
 
The brits have Skylon. Allthough it's unmanned initially and not rated for human flight it is a fairly progressed R&D project of a single stage spaceplane that will be able to cut delivery cost from 15k £/kg to 650 £/kg to LEO. It will take a fair amount of innovation to make the program viable, but that was the same reference point when they started the Apollo program 50 years ago.

I could be wrong, but I feel US rocket science is populated by people who regurgitate Von Braun and Kuznetsov's work. There's very little real innovation compared to the amount of funds that has been channeled into rocket science. Do we need the other branches of science to spoonfeed rocket scientists with new research to get new and exiting programs started, or should the rocket scientists challenge(and fund) new research in other fields(like exotic materials) like they did with the Apollo program?
 
If I may chime in on that: The required strength is larger than any material available right now offers. Theoretically it is possible, as graphene and carbon nanotubes have the required strength, but as the "nano" in the name implies these materials exist only on the nano- to microscale. So in theory one would just have to scale this up to the required 40000 kilometers. But this scaling is extremely hard because you have to ensure that there are no defects in your not-so-nano-anymore-tube. So you need to build a perfect molecule from like 10^18 atoms and that's far beyond your current capabilities.

And then nobody knows, whether at some point the tube becomes unstable and collapses for some reason or another. An ab initio simulation of a large molecule is impossible (at least on a classical computer), so nobody knows whether such a long tube can exist.

So at the moment we know nothing that would theoretically exclude a space elevator, but in practice there are huge hurdles to overcome.



What about making a rope of nanothreads the way ropes are made of other threads?
 
So what are the chicks like down there?

Not much future here with the space program closing down. I hear China's hiring!
 
What about making a rope of nanothreads the way ropes are made of other threads?

I think that is exactly the idea most researches have in mid when they want to make a space elevator cable. But to make such a rope, one needs threads of the appropriate length and getting those is the whole problem.
 
If I may chime in on that: The required strength is larger than any material available right now offers. Theoretically it is possible, as graphene and carbon nanotubes have the required strength, but as the "nano" in the name implies these materials exist only on the nano- to microscale.

:D

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...ionid=6649B00B51386AB92DE738B092D68CB6.d02t03

Superstrong, ultralong, individual carbon nanotubes (CNTs) are deposited with TiO2 particles and visualized under an optical microscope with excellent strain-relaxation reversibility and high fatigue resistance capability. The CNTs with perfect structures have tensile strengths of up to 200 GPa, densities to 1.34 TPa, energy density as high as 1125 Wh kg−1 and the power density can be up to 144 MW kg−1 for mechanical energy storage. The superb mechanical properties confirm the potential of an individual CNT as an effective storage medium with mechanical energy for nano-electromechanical systems, flexible devices, sensors, actuators, antennas, etc.

And then the blog reporting on the paper (I don't have access to the paper, or detailed knowledge to critique it)

http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/10/superstrong-10-20-centimeter-long.html
Superstrong 10-20 centimeter long Carbon Nanotubes for Mechanical Energy Storage that is 8 times better than lithium batteries

NPG Asia Materials - Ultralong, defect-free carbon nanotubes could store mechanical energy at high energy densities for use in nano-devices.

Besides the energy storage the researchers are making 10 to 20 centimeter long carbon nanotubes that have no defects and have a strength of 200 GPa.
 
:D

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...ionid=6649B00B51386AB92DE738B092D68CB6.d02t03



And then the blog reporting on the paper (I don't have access to the paper, or detailed knowledge to critique it)

http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/10/superstrong-10-20-centimeter-long.html

:) As I said, it is a hot topic and to get accurate information you need to get to the actual research literature. That paper is just about 3 months old, so any writeup of the topic is unlikely to include it. Apparently they made quite some progress since my last course about nanosystems 3 years ago.

Scanning over the paper, this seems to be exactly the kind of thing we would need for a space elevator, just a billion times longer. It remains to be seen, whether this can be scaled up to the necessary length, but the quick progress during the last years is cause for optimism.
 
Hi all,

I'll be replying to all of these soon, just wanted to let you know I haven't forgotten about AARS.
 
Seems sort of trivial, but did you build your own amateur rockets ever and launched them just for fun?
 
Can you build me a Death Star?

Yep! Just tell me where to put it.

Is there anywhere where this is discussed respectably? I wouldn't know where to look for these types of engineering/physics discussions, other than in the lay popular press. I'd be interested in evidence of some type of consensus amongst people who could be reasonably considered 'experts'.

Good question. If I find any reliable resources for this sort of thing in my travels, I'll let you know!

Thanks!
Now, in essence, it's not really that outrageous of a question. The idea of knowing the amount of fuel to get a rocket into orbit (including its fuel) is basically the same maths, right?

Oh, as an aside, I'll give another shout-out to on of my favorite sites for pro-space-development people www.permanent.com is about harvesting near-Earth asteroids.

It is absolutely the same maths, kinematically speaking. The problem is that the motion often works out in ways that complicate the matter somewhat because there is more than just one force acting on the rocket, leading to extenuating circumstances and additional considerations that make the problem more than simply "I have this acceleration until tf, when I have this acceleration" or in our example, "I start with this energy, so I can go this far." When talking about rockets, for example, rockets have three degrees of freedom, and the condition of airflow around a rocket when moving at monstrous speeds leads to considerable reaction forces. When I was treating the rocket like a particle in a vacuum, my biggest problem was the mass function (something I wouldn't even let myself be bothered to solve for explicitly). In reality, my biggest problem would probably be the turbulent flow. But I'm speaking vaguely on purpose because rocket design and propulsion systems are at the summit, in terms of complexity, in aerospace engineering.

For people who like statistics, your average propulsion systems specialist is likely to make $50,000 more than the average engineer. That's because they're in high demand and there are very few people who go into the specialty because it's such a high-stress, high-complexity discipline.

Several video games I have played (Mass Effect, Freelancer, etc.) show space travel through the use of "gates" in space that the ship would fly through in order to gain the speed necessary to travel between planets or star systems.

Does this sort of idea have any realistic premise? Vague, I know, but I'm not sure of the science behind these types of space travel.

This is a cool question, as a fan of space travel it's something I have often fantasized about. From an engineering perspective, the answer is no: the best we have right now and the current banking of all our knowledge is in objects whose velocities are finite. ;)

If I may be permitted to digress a bit, there are certain fundamentals that have been demonstrated physically that those fiction series represent. Between warpgates that literally teleport those that enter them and other machines that infinitely accelerate their patrons, only the latter has a physical basis (well, as we know it) in mass drivers. Magnetically-accelerated projectiles can, in theory, reach relativistic speeds, although the forces exerted on those projectiles would be astronomical. You could attempt to design for these types of forces, but accelerating to light speed in a short enough time would kill the people doing the accelerating: the human body can only take so much punishment.

If you look to the quantum species of physics, you see that there is a fair bit of research into the behavior of peculiar particles, such as certain particles that can go faster than light and other particles that seem to teleport. As far as practicality goes, even if we could reach parity and beyond, it'd have to take a long time.

Carbon nanostructures are a hot topic in research right now. I am afraid if you want to have accurate, up to date information, you will need to search the research literature on the topic. If you are lucky, you might find a comprehensive review, but these are no compiled very often, so the information might be outdated already.

Because it is such a hot topic, I don't think there is much of a consensus beyond "it might be possible, but we don't really know". Science moves forward by dissent, so a consensus is usually formed after a field has slowed down and the major discoveries have been made and accepted. I don't think this has happened yet on the feasibility of a space elevator based on carbon nanostructures.

Carbon nanostructures have been constructed in labs and are demonstrated to be quite strong.

From what I've heard, a space elevator that was constructed primarily out of these carbon allotropes would be able to resist the forces necessary for operation.

The brits have Skylon. Allthough it's unmanned initially and not rated for human flight it is a fairly progressed R&D project of a single stage spaceplane that will be able to cut delivery cost from 15k £/kg to 650 £/kg to LEO. It will take a fair amount of innovation to make the program viable, but that was the same reference point when they started the Apollo program 50 years ago.

I could be wrong, but I feel US rocket science is populated by people who regurgitate Von Braun and Kuznetsov's work. There's very little real innovation compared to the amount of funds that has been channeled into rocket science. Do we need the other branches of science to spoonfeed rocket scientists with new research to get new and exiting programs started, or should the rocket scientists challenge(and fund) new research in other fields(like exotic materials) like they did with the Apollo program?

That's an interesting point of view. What makes you think that we're regurgitating the work of Von Braun and Kuznetsov? We've made great strides since them. Speaking overall, that is.

When talking of rockets directly, however, there is more cause for concern. There hasn't been a large national priority on the construction of large-payload rockets, so the technology hasn't advanced much beyond the adjustments necessary for your next deep space mission. Most of the development hasn't been in propulsion, it's been in the design of spacecraft and their component parts, and the application of robotics, which account for most of the technological difference between the rockets of today and that of the 1960's. Nevertheless, the field is advancing on all fronts, but in terms of new technology it's mainly held back because designing a rocket is not easy. A lot can go wrong. That's why the axioms espoused by many of the great rocket designers from back in the day are still looked to for guidance. Even most of Von Braun's designs were catastrophic failures.

In airplane design, however, America is doing fantastically. Engineers are developing new and better technologies all the time and the United States is handily leading the world when it comes to aeronautical engineering.

If I had to attribute the gully between the relative "success" of these branches to anything, I'd say it was funding that was doing it. There's a lot of government cash that goes into the air force and in all NASA jet design and supersonic flow labs, and private industry is constantly trying to develop new ways to improve their airfleets. This itself is because there are a lot of goals that are easy to identify, and there's a healthy incentive to fulfill them: there is considerable talk about trying to build private jets that can go at supersonic speeds... and don't cause a sonic boom. How it's done is pretty cool, but the status of airplanes as high-technology, high-expense items means that, as long as there exists an absurdly wealthy upper class, the industry will do quite well when it comes to innovation.

As for rockets, well, it's much more difficult to design a rocket than an airplane, and because the number of people who specialize in that field are shrinking the knowledge-base for designing a rocket from scratch is also starting to disappear. There is very, very little incentive to go into rocket design because it's twice as much work for almost a third less of the money.

So what are the chicks like down there?

Not much future here with the space program closing down. I hear China's hiring!

The chicks are fine, and so are the women.

Aerospace engineering is a mixed bag here. The United States is the world leader in terms of both numbers and quality, but our space program definitely isn't what it used to be.

As it happens, the space program is still the top in the world.

I think that is exactly the idea most researches have in mid when they want to make a space elevator cable. But to make such a rope, one needs threads of the appropriate length and getting those is the whole problem.

A space elevator would likely operate pneumatically as opposed to with pulleys and cables. It's more efficient that way.

Seems sort of trivial, but did you build your own amateur rockets ever and launched them just for fun?

Once a soda bottle rocket, but it didn't go far :lol:

You can't build your own rockets and launch them if they're bound to go very high at all. The Air Force doesn't like it when you do that. I know around here plenty of aero students have gotten in trouble for launching rockets without a permit. ;)
 
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