What you think about Byzantine?

Just curious what others think about Byzantine in Civ5 BNW.
For me it felt like im was playing not only against AI, but also against game mechanic itself.

Let's start with UU. We have two of them both ancient/classic.
And here comes the 1st problem, how many of them you can pull out before a new version is avaiable, without hurting yourself more than anyone else. There is also a pure defensive use, but classic composite bowman is defensive enought.

If we dream about early agression, then there is a problem of early agression being not worthy anything, due to massive unhappiness, and conquering other cities will not bring us any closer to founding religion. And if we start a war everyone will hate us.

Cataphrack - is much better than horsemen when it comes to attack/defense. But also is slower, so it is more like hybrid of swordsman/horseman than just better version. Sometimes it would be great if both classic and UU version are avaiable since they serve different purpose. Still have small window of opportunity after which pikeman makes it obsolete.

Dromon - is ranged, but have no better stats than Trireme (moreover have worse melee value). As soon as galleas enter the game there is no comparison. Again if it was tied to optics as completly different unit than trirema (and classic stats instead of ancient) it would be more interesting. I admit that once used it to conquere another city early on, but im suppose that if i rush Galleas it would be as much if not more effective.

Patriarchate of Constantinople:
It is great that once you found a religion, you can pick 2 beliefs (and not only fallowers) so for example i can secure 2 of my favorite beliefs. However there is a problem that... reigion is not given, more like you must fight for it and have luck with that. Rushing Stonehage, or forcing into Piety is start limitacion. It seems that Byzantine may actually have no UA at all which is interesting.

What you can squize from Byzantine...
From the other side the more belief in religion can have some good use.
Religion Sites are just better with 3 buildings at disposal, but then... you need to be lucky to get 3 religious buildings, and this exacly belief. However this tactic is not limited to Byzantine, and others could perform it just as good. Egypt could have a little easier time with happiness, while Poland could faster got Piety tree finished (and so get Prophet). Mayas can do similar but without need of finishing tree.
On the other note: religious buildings are a little OP when you compare them to hard builded one, even with right belief. like Pagodas vs Religious Center.

The other thing is to craft double founder belief and try to be dominant religion, with tithe and peace loving. But im not sure how good it is. Or if Byzantine have a edge here over any other civ with peace loving, and some UA giving gold. Probably Arabia coudl do the same just better.

So it seems that Byzantine is just civ with 2 classic era units which are not even impressive, and have no interest in early agression (quite opposite). To get any UA you need to alter your opening, and you are never guarantee you will have desired one, or any at all.

What could help:
(it is total SF, but one can dream)
- Add to UA "Once Theology discovered free Prophet apears near capital". Which is quite powerful, but Byzantine need this prophet to use UA at all, and timing Theology is at least strategy based, while finding goodie hut/having good location for folklore is pure luck.
There are alternatives, but none is as good as free prophet. For example "each costal city generates 1 faith". But that means that that Byzantine is encourage to spam cities. (not to mention but currently spaming cities is a way to go when it comes to religion)
Or more capital centric "Palace generates 1faith for each 3pop in capital"

Minor buff to UU would be welcome, since they are not as powerful, and the window of opportunity is rather thin, even more considering that we need to build this ground for future religon. So:
- Kataphrack could have movment back to 4, so it will be just better horseman, and can fulfit same role as horseman.
- Dromon could have Ranged attack rised to 12, so it will be a early medieval unit, not ancient. And there will be good reason to build it, instead of Composite bowman, giving Byzantine time for some early dominance.

evilcat said:

Just curious what others think about Byzantine in Civ5 BNW.
For me it felt like im was playing not only against AI, but also against game mechanic itself.

Let's start with UU. We have two of them both ancient/classic.
And here comes the 1st problem, how many of them you can pull out before a new version is avaiable, without hurting yourself more than anyone else. There is also a pure defensive use, but classic composite bowman is defensive enought.

If we dream about early agression, then there is a problem of early agression being not worthy anything, due to massive unhappiness, and conquering other cities will not bring us any closer to founding religion. And if we start a war everyone will hate us.

Cataphrack - is much better than horsemen when it comes to attack/defense. But also is slower, so it is more like hybrid of swordsman/horseman than just better version. Sometimes it would be great if both classic and UU version are avaiable since they serve different purpose. Still have small window of opportunity after which pikeman makes it obsolete.

Dromon - is ranged, but have no better stats than Trireme (moreover have worse melee value). As soon as galleas enter the game there is no comparison. Again if it was tied to optics as completly different unit than trirema (and classic stats instead of ancient) it would be more interesting. I admit that once used it to conquere another city early on, but im suppose that if i rush Galleas it would be as much if not more effective.

Patriarchate of Constantinople:
It is great that once you found a religion, you can pick 2 beliefs (and not only fallowers) so for example i can secure 2 of my favorite beliefs. However there is a problem that... reigion is not given, more like you must fight for it and have luck with that. Rushing Stonehage, or forcing into Piety is start limitacion. It seems that Byzantine may actually have no UA at all which is interesting.

What you can squize from Byzantine...
From the other side the more belief in religion can have some good use.
Religion Sites are just better with 3 buildings at disposal, but then... you need to be lucky to get 3 religious buildings, and this exacly belief. However this tactic is not limited to Byzantine, and others could perform it just as good. Egypt could have a little easier time with happiness, while Poland could faster got Piety tree finished (and so get Prophet). Mayas can do similar but without need of finishing tree.

The other thing is to craft double founder belief and try to be dominant religion, with tithe and peace loving. But im not sure how good it is. Or if Byzantine have a edge here over any other civ with peace loving, and some UA giving gold. Probably Arabia coudl do the same just better.

So it seems that Byzantine is just civ with 2 classic era units which are not even impressive, and have no interest in early agression (quite opposite). To get any UA you need to alter your opening, and you are never guarantee you will have desired one, or any at all.

What could help:
(it is total SF, but one can dream)
- Make cataphrack separate unit from horsemen, so you can have both. Sometimes this +1 speed actually matters.
- Make Dromon separate unit from triterema, and tied to Optics. And give it classic era stats. (even if it will be Ranged 13 melee 10)
- Add to UA that upon discovery of Religion you get free Prophet. If Babylon gets scientisc so can Byzantine. At least you will be guarantee to have this religion, and moreover as one of first, and since there is not much more Byzantine gets its ok.

Click to expand...

Complaints about the Byzantine are quite commonplace around here. Even if they disappeared a little bit after BNW, I think it's just because of the new content. Anyway, I think it's a healthy pratice, as I do hope Firaxis listen to these ideas, some day or another.

On the question, now: I do agree with every problem you pointed out, but I don't agree with your solutions. I don't think it's viable, with the game's programming, to have separate units - unique and vanilla - produceable. Thinks of the Huns... if it was a viable option, why would they take out their spearmen?

You know, the Byzantines need really minor buffs to become a viable civ - which even with BNW (where things became easier for them) they still aren't. In my view, the problems with the Byzantine are just two: hard time getting their religion up and Unique Units crampled up in the early game.

My solution?
(1) Add to their UA "You get X (30?) faith everytime a religion is founded". This will help them race to their religion, without taking out the necessity to build their own shrines ASAP.

(2) Make the Cathrapact a Knight replacement. This would make them focus on naval firstly, then land (And give more playtime for their Uniques, since as it is now, they all become obsolete so fast that Byzantium past turn 100 just feels like a bland civilization with no bonuses).


And as a side note: Byzantium is one of the two civs that deserve the "really stupid AI prize". More than half of my games where they appeared, they didn't get a religion. And on a good part of them they settled earlier in landlocked areas, having lost access to dromon. This is really, really bad programming (but I still think, as of now, that Isabella is the Dumb Queen number one).

Byzantines are mostly fine. The only change I'd make is to have their Pantheon Faith threshold not increase when other civs found Pantheons. That way there is less of an issue with them not taking advantage of their UA at higher difficulty levels.

Both of the UUs are fine. The Cataphract acts as sort of a hybrid between a Swordsman and a Knight. It's a fine unit for defense. The Dromon is a great weapon for both offense and defense limited by only being useful on the coasts. There's nothing wrong with having great power with limits.

eagle pursuit said:

the only change i'd make is to have their pantheon faith threshold not increase when other civs found pantheons. That way there is less of an issue with them not taking advantage of their ua at higher difficulty levels.

Click to expand...

bravo.

Eagle Pursuit said:

Byzantines are mostly fine. The only change I'd make is to have their Pantheon Faith threshold not increase when other civs found Pantheons. That way there is less of an issue with them not taking advantage of their UA at higher difficulty levels.

Both of the UUs are fine. The Cataphract acts as sort of a hybrid between a Swordsman and a Knight. It's a fine unit for defense. The Dromon is a great weapon for both offense and defense limited by only being useful on the coasts. There's nothing wrong with having great power with limits.

Click to expand...

Am I the only one that thinks Byzantium's ability is not that special? And that is messes up their early game strategy (specially in harder difficulties) in order to make use of it?

I haven't played them post BNW, might try it later. Maybe I'm misjudging them, but I never say the awesomeness of getting that extra belief. On paper it sounds incredible, but in-game I feel it's more frequently than not just another leftover belief, that was cast aside by the high religious rollers.

As a side question: Just realized... is Theodora the most luck-dependant leader on the whole game?

Imalich said:

As a side question: Just realized... is Theodora the most luck-dependant leader on the whole game?

Click to expand...

Not as luck-based as Isabella.

My opinion on the Byzantines?

Well, I'm not sure what I'd do with their UA, but I'm in favor of scrapping it. I'd like to give their UA to the Celts in this form:

Druidic Lore: +1 Faith per city with an adjacent unimproved Forest. Bonus increases to +2 Faith in Cities with 3 or more adjacent unimproved Forest tiles. May choose two Pantheon beliefs.

This would allow the Celts to retain some late game usefulness with their UA. The original UA would guarantee they receive a Pantheon, and the two Pantheon beliefs would allow them flexibility and create some interesting combinations. While obtainable earlier than the Byzantine version, it is also restricted to the Pantheon category.

The Byzantines could get something else, perhaps a city defense bonus or something. A UA called Theodosian Walls might be cool.

Hm...

Theodosian Walls: Cities are established with Walls and city bombardment has three range.

Alternatively to the three range, cities can attack twice per turn? In any case, a strong defensive bonus like this would allow you to send your troops away without much worry. Losing the religion focus to the Celts would also allow the Byzantines to pursue their two UUs. New strategy? Beeline your two powerful UUs, build as many as possible, and use them for early game defense (coupled with Theodosian Walls, this would be nigh impossible for enemies to overcome), or for early offense (again, with Theodosian Walls, send your army out without fear of losing your cities).

I personally find them really fun especially with the new reformation belief. You can really tailor your game through beliefs. Maybe they're not the best civ but I'd always play them over a japan or germany

The Byzantines need a religion UB in a bad way. There is a mod that gives them this but it replaces the Cataphract, where I would have replaced the Dromon. The Cataphract is too iconic and I find more useful. The UA could be improved, maybe get a free Great Prophet at Theology in addition to the bonus belief, to essentially guarantee a religion?

Still my favourite, at least on Emperor. Haven't tried them on immortal yet, but it doesn't look good with all the AI typically going gung ho on religion.

If you manage to get some of the +faith beliefs and get a early spread of your religion, they kinda skyrocket. The one that gives + from wonders is amazing. I had a game the other day where at the medieval ages my capital was generating well over 200 faith per turn, it was just ******ed. Once i hit industrial age and had the piety bonus that allowed me to purchase any great person I could pretty much do whatever I wanted.

Some of my neighbor civs missed getting a religion altogether, so i quickly converted them all to my religion, they pretty much stayed my best friends through the game and helped me vote in my religion as World Religion.

The downside I guess is if you miss your religion its pretty much game over on higher difficulties. Its like trying to win a soccermatch with a broken knee.

Two founder beliefs, missionary zeal, mosque of djenne, evangelism and convert the whole world. GG.

I'd say Byzantines got a pretty significant buff in BNW. Now that piety unlocks in the Ancient Era, if they want to get a religion, they just have to go Piety. A Piety start isn't a death sentence, either. Religion helps get you what you want, and Byzantines are the best at making religions.

As for Byzantine buffs, the whole "Free Great Prophet" at, say, Theology, seems reasonable at first, but the downside is that it makes the Celts, who really should have the early faith lead, possibly not have that lead.

A more appropriate change to the Byzantines would to be to play to their idea of having the "stronger" religion; allowing their Great Prophets to spread religion 5 times, +1 movement to religious units, or something along those lines.

I loved the Cataphract when I first trained one. "A horse that can defend? This is great, what could go wrong?" Then I upgraded it. "Where'd the bonuses go?"

It would be super if they could carry that defense upgrade. Overpowered? I don't know, but I'd enjoy it.

As an overall thing, it would be splendid to know which promotions stick with upgrades and which don't.

I was just going to say how Theodora is like Isabella now.

Except in terms of luck dependence, Isabella will break the game if she gets lucky. You can't really say the same for Theodora. Despite of this they both need luck.

Needs a buff. Or at least tell the AI to go for Piety now more than Tradition or something.

ferretbacon said:

Not as luck-based as Isabella.

Click to expand...

At first glance I tought like that too. But really, now I think Byzantium is strictly worse in that regard.

Isabella always starts near one wonder or two. Of course it always can be one horrible wonder, badly placed or in city-state borders. But, worst case scenario, you get some extra money and happiness and two solid UU's.

With Theodora there are many ways bad luck can screw you up. You might get screwed up with horses, being unable to build Cathrapact, you might screw up in the coast positioning, leaving no space for the Dromon, and you might get screwed up with faith - either not founding a religion or founding one of leftover beliefs. Basically, you can't count on a single one of their uniques.

(And c'mon, I still can't convince myself one more belief is worth all that trouble. Yeah, let's pick tithe as bonus and make lots of money. Like there aren't many other civs capable of doing that with way easier and faster methods.)

I'm really rather puzzled over the fact that no one seems to like the Dromon. Maybe it's the fact that people seem to play more Pangaea than Archipelago/Island? Dunno.

But, as it stands now, it's the only Ranged Naval unit before the Galleass. This has VERY far-reaching impacts on any map with at least some water.

First, the Byzantines should have the most experienced ranged (i.e., useful) navy in the game. I'd put Byzantine naval units up against Venetian Great Galleass or English Ships of the Line any day.

Second, the Byzantines have a definite leg up on the Barbarian murdering spree in the early game. Combine this with the Honor opener and you have the Culture generator that Piety needs to get going.

Third, your coastal cities can replace CB with Dromons for defense if necessary.

Finally, the impact of the Dromon on your ability to protect your trade routes should not be underestimated.

That's just one of the Byzantine UUs. While I'm not too enamored of the Cataphract, and the UA might need tweaking, this is an example rather like Ethiopia or the Mongols: one aspect of the Civ is very strong, and thus must be compensated elsewhere with weaker traits.

Edit:

At first glance I tought like that too. But really, now I think Byzantium is strictly worse in that regard.

Isabella always starts near one wonder or two. Of course it always can be one horrible wonder, badly placed or in city-state borders. But, worst case scenario, you get some extra money and happiness and two solid UU's.

Click to expand...

This is flat-out not true. I have played several games with Isabella where there were no Natural Wonders on my starting continent

With Theodora there are many ways bad luck can screw you up. You might get screwed up with horses,

Click to expand...

This is true of any Civ with mounted UUs. While Theodora is minorly inconvenienced by no horses (the Cataphract being the least useful unique trait of the Civ), think of what happens if Mongolia can't get Horses. Kinda pathetic, no?

you might screw up in the coast positioning, leaving no space for the Dromon,

Click to expand...

This is most likely an issue of player skill rather than luck. And, again, this is exactly true of Dido as well as Theodora.

(And c'mon, I still can't convince myself one more belief is worth all that trouble. Yeah, let's pick tithe as bonus and make lots of money. Like there aren't many other civs capable of doing that with way easier and faster methods.)

Click to expand...

And, again, this is flat-out not true. No other Civ in the game can take two Founding beliefs with their Religion. Sure, any Religion can have Tithe, but only the Byzantine Religion can have Tithe and Pilgrimage (e.g.).

I think making Cataphracts a Knight replacement is probably a good idea. But, seriously, a lot of hate here for an admittedly somewhat- (but not very-)luck-based Civ.

For those who want, there's a mod that gives the Byzantines an absolutely broken UB in exchange for their Cataphract. Play with that if you want uber-religion.

This is totally an on-paper sort of idea and not something I've done first-hand, but I feel like the strongest use of the extra belief is to double up on passive spread. Tithe with Itinerant and RT (and maybe Unity of the Prophets, though that could be overkill) might actually be worth it (particularly on a Pangaea), assuming you can actually get those beliefs. The AI doesn't value them, so it's not unthinkable. It's a lot of money, a lot of diplomacy bonuses, extra influence for tourism, etc.

Taking two founder beliefs doesn't really seem all that worthwhile unless you get Desert Folklore or something. I don't much like active spread if you don't have considerable extra faith generation, and Byzantium doesn't.

Thoughts? I know this is by no means an unusual approach, so I'm curious to hear how it works in practice and whether it's actually worth doing.

Imalich said:

At first glance I tought like that too. But really, now I think Byzantium is strictly worse in that regard.

Isabella always starts near one wonder or two. Of course it always can be one horrible wonder, badly placed or in city-state borders. But, worst case scenario, you get some extra money and happiness and two solid UU's.

With Theodora there are many ways bad luck can screw you up. You might get screwed up with horses, being unable to build Cathrapact, you might screw up in the coast positioning, leaving no space for the Dromon, and you might get screwed up with faith - either not founding a religion or founding one of leftover beliefs. Basically, you can't count on a single one of their uniques.

(And c'mon, I still can't convince myself one more belief is worth all that trouble. Yeah, let's pick tithe as bonus and make lots of money. Like there aren't many other civs capable of doing that with way easier and faster methods.)

Click to expand...

Fair points.

As to the usefulness of that extra belief, the power of the UA comes from the ability to essentially choose your unique ability depending on the circumstances. Furthermore, you can tailor your religion to possess exceptional synergy since the UA allows you to choose an extra belief from ANY category (Founder, Follower, etc.).

This is all nullified by the fact that the Byzantines are not necessarily going to get first pick on their beliefs (or second... or third... maybe not even fourth). If left with the scraps, as you said, the usefulness is negligible.

I like the idea, but I've never liked the Byzantines in practice. I'm still of the opinion that the Byzantines (and the Celts, to a lesser degree) both suffer from the same thing: the perceived (expected?) bias of the developers that Religion was going to be very powerful, and that, thus, the Byzantines and Celts necessitated only a carefully measured affinity towards religion.

The actual case is that religion is a nice buff to a civilization that can found one, but is not so game changing that an entire civilization ought to be based around one.

Rattlejaw: Depending on difficulty and opponents, I have a couple of different strategies, but the overall one is most definitely two Founder beliefs. Tithe plus another is the likely story.

You can go the 3-building route, but if you aggressively push your Religion, choosing an extra Follower belief gives that ability to everyone around you. An extra Founder belief stays with just you.

Two passive spread beliefs is probably the next-best option. Primary reason to do this is because it's also the only way to grab a spread belief before your 2nd Great Prophet.

Eagle Pursuit said:

Byzantines are mostly fine. The only change I'd make is to have their Pantheon Faith threshold not increase when other civs found Pantheons. That way there is less of an issue with them not taking advantage of their UA at higher difficulty levels.

Both of the UUs are fine. The Cataphract acts as sort of a hybrid between a Swordsman and a Knight. It's a fine unit for defense. The Dromon is a great weapon for both offense and defense limited by only being useful on the coasts. There's nothing wrong with having great power with limits.

Click to expand...

This.

Just making the cost of founding a religion not go up would make them have a solid early game, and not want to restart if you find Celts, Ethiopia and Mayans.

As for the UU's, the Dromon is a decent unit, very useful for taking about barbs, defending and arrasing, not spectacular but it has its uses.

As for the Cataphract, I think that it should be a knight replacement, if anthing because its all about the early game with Byzantium, hardly any time to make good use of it. If it was a knight it would come into play once you have your religion rolling, and want to go and squash other religious rivals.