Standard Civ IV versus Civ VI BTS

Alarik

Chieftain
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Mar 2, 2007
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How in the heck - when I started BTS on emperor it feels like the level of difficulty has gone up 2 steps compared to standard Civ?
Is it possible to win in BTS? How? When I had 3 cities with tax going up to 50 % my opponents had 10 cities.. this is just incredible. I won on emperor on standard civ but here i havent a chance it seems.. can it really be that big difference. Any tricks/tips/advise? I am a bit proud of going down one level... Usually play romans. :confused:

/Alarik
 
I won on emperor on standard civ but here i havent a chance it seems.. can it really be that big difference.

Yes it can. Alot of people had to drop down a level or two when BtS came out. Blake did a good job of upgrading the AI, it's much smarter than it ever was in the first two versions. BTW, you might to make sure you defend your coastal cities now. The AI actually knows how to launch an effective amphibious assault in BtS. No more dropping off a couple of units here and there, it will sometimes come in with half a dozen or more ships filled with units.
 
Yeah, AI definitely improved with BTS. It learned a few new tricks at least.
 
The things is: I think my general strategy is not optimal. Want to build everything - wonders, military, cities. So the AI is smarter, but also it seems you have to retrain from building 4 cities in the beginning, max 2 or 3 seems max to keep economy. I really dont see how to handle this... anyhow, thanks for replies.

/Alarik
 
Yes it can. Alot of people had to drop down a level or two when BtS came out. Blake did a good job of upgrading the AI, it's much smarter than it ever was in the first two versions. BTW, you might to make sure you defend your coastal cities now. The AI actually knows how to launch an effective amphibious assault in BtS. No more dropping off a couple of units here and there, it will sometimes come in with half a dozen or more ships filled with units.
I have never been on the receiving end of a navel assult no matter how many ships the opposition has, and thats usualy an insanely high number
 
I've seen some nice naval assaults from the AI. On huge continents maps it seems that if I capture at least one city on an opponents land mass that they will forego a naval assault and prefer to directly attack my city through the land route. If the naval assault is already in motion they won't turn around though.
 
It's possible to win Immortal consistently. Not sure about Deity, I can't seem to get much beyond 50% odds. Still, that's a lot better than fair odds (which would imply winning 1 in 7 games on stanard settings).

As for how to win against high-level AIs... I don't think there's an ideal cookie cutter strategy. Deity is utter chaos for me (I don't win under my own power, I look for openings to let one AI win the game for me...) so the following assumes Emperor-Immortal:

I either build the majority of wonders or out-expand the AI by a comfortable margin - crashing one's economy in the process if fine as long as we get to recovery eventually (i.e. avoid getting stuck at 0 research before Currency/Code of Laws...).
My goal is around 12 cities at 1AD, more if I forgo wonders (apart from the Great Lighthouse which I always go for if the map warrants it).

The key is to strip away what you don't need. No unclaimed land and diplomacy is well in hand? You don't need military beyond a garrison warrior in each city.
Have a wonderspammer nearby? Amass an army since you can get cities and wonders for free.
Most players don't emphasise short-term rewards enough... something as basic as settling on a plains hill can make a city become an asset instead of a liability in short order.

War is a great tool to make the AIs throw away their production bonuses... possibly with one another (I love to scavenge cities from an ally who does all the work...), but being the victim isn't always bad.
Whether you're encouraging them to throw their units at an impregnable fortress or whether you pick theirs apart with siege and city raiders in a city without cultural defense... loss rates should be well in your favour. This softens the opponent up for an eventual push, and if they attacked you there won't be any diplomatic repercussions.

Many of these are probably pretty basic for an Emperor player... but getting into specifics fails to address the point that Civ4 is a surprisingly deep game where radically different approaches can be viable.
 
Oddly, I didn't find the game much harder when I went from Vanilla to BtS, but then, I play on lower levels (Prince-Monarch).

It certainly seems that the AI techs slower - they seem to get distracted by espionage. And they don't seem to use spies well, other than nuisance attacks.
 
The things is: I think my general strategy is not optimal. Want to build everything - wonders, military, cities. So the AI is smarter, but also it seems you have to retrain from building 4 cities in the beginning, max 2 or 3 seems max to keep economy. I really dont see how to handle this... anyhow, thanks for replies.

/Alarik

Along with other areas, the AI is also better at expanding it's empire and developing it's economy. You need to keep a close eye on runaway civs or you'll never catch up to them. So sometimes you need to go beyond that 4 cities, not cut back.
 
It's possible to win Immortal consistently. Not sure about Deity, I can't seem to get much beyond 50% odds. Still, that's a lot better than fair odds (which would imply winning 1 in 7 games on stanard settings).

As for how to win against high-level AIs... I don't think there's an ideal cookie cutter strategy. Deity is utter chaos for me (I don't win under my own power, I look for openings to let one AI win the game for me...) so the following assumes Emperor-Immortal:

I either build the majority of wonders or out-expand the AI by a comfortable margin - crashing one's economy in the process if fine as long as we get to recovery eventually (i.e. avoid getting stuck at 0 research before Currency/Code of Laws...).
My goal is around 12 cities at 1AD, more if I forgo wonders (apart from the Great Lighthouse which I always go for if the map warrants it).

The key is to strip away what you don't need. No unclaimed land and diplomacy is well in hand? You don't need military beyond a garrison warrior in each city.
Have a wonderspammer nearby? Amass an army since you can get cities and wonders for free.
Most players don't emphasise short-term rewards enough... something as basic as settling on a plains hill can make a city become an asset instead of a liability in short order.

War is a great tool to make the AIs throw away their production bonuses... possibly with one another (I love to scavenge cities from an ally who does all the work...), but being the victim isn't always bad.
Whether you're encouraging them to throw their units at an impregnable fortress or whether you pick theirs apart with siege and city raiders in a city without cultural defense... loss rates should be well in your favour. This softens the opponent up for an eventual push, and if they attacked you there won't be any diplomatic repercussions.

Many of these are probably pretty basic for an Emperor player... but getting into specifics fails to address the point that Civ4 is a surprisingly deep game where radically different approaches can be viable.


Very interesting analysis, thanks! I guess the main problem is how to balance military prod/wonders/expansion - and I have also realized CIV IV is deep, which is of course nice. 12 cities before 1 AD sounds very tough. Which leader do you usually play?

A couple of comments/questions:

1. I usuall feel one should found one religion, bc of shrine and happiness. And this religion is usually judaism if I have stone nearby. Also monotheism is good for organised religion civic. Otherwise I go for meditation (which I usually lose) and then try to build oracle and found confucianism.
Maybe playing a non-religous game but with more wonders?

2. To be able to expand and have many armies requires code of laws + feudalism (so one can get vasslage = many units). I dont see how this is possible before 1 AD. My main problem is that the prets become obsolete before these techs are achieved. This means I can only take cities a very bounded time with the prets and then economy breaks.

3. Is epic harder than normal speed?

4. Usually I let the first city grow to size 3 then build worker if there is gold or somethig interesting nearby; in other case i build settler.
Then comes the big question how one could cope without stonehenge and / or pyramids. So i usually try to build on of them. I like wonders that promote great enginneers since those can be used to build more wonders..

5. What is actually the benefit of settling a city on a plain hill? Shall one plan cities not to overlap in the strongest sense? Meaning there should for instance be no more than 3 tiles overlap. I am also doubtful of founding cities close to deserts. I hate deserts.

Best,
Alarik
 
1) I usually get the AI to found religions and take up one that spreads to me for diplo reasons. I also only build wonders when they help my game plan.

2) You don't need feudalism to have a big army, I prefer bureaucracy though

3) I think Epic is easier, but the barbs are more of a hassle

4) I nearly always build a worker first, except on marathon where the worker will be idle for too long. If I'm on the coast I build a workboat after fishing though. I hardly ever build stonehenge unless I am going for a domination win. Pyramids are nice if I have stone though. I just chop or whip monuments, they are cheap.

5) Plains hill gets 2 hammer for the city tile instead of 1
 
Glad to be of assistance!

I usually play random leaders (although I favour those with economic rather than military benefits)on RandomMapScript. Regarding the number of cities: I tend to settle a little tighter than most players so a dozen cities is less impressive than it sounds.

Now to the more general questions...

1. Going for Hinduism seems to be slightly more likely to work than Buddhism, it offers you a second chance with Judaism and I also find it more useful as a tech prerequisite (the AI tends to not prioritise the Aesthetics line -> good trade bait, and the Great Library is a fairly useful wonder).
Unless Industrious (I love Organised Religion + and Oracle slingshot for cheap forges to boost my production) worker techs usually take priority over religion though.

2. The easiest way to afford limitless expansion on most maps is the Great Lighthouse. If that's not an option, the cash from conquest can sometimes allow deficit research into Code of Laws/Currency - if you get those cities connected to the trade network asap.
The problem with this approach: if it doesn't work... it REALLY doesn't work and you're stuck in tech hell. Also, Praetorians will have done a good job if you can hardly keep your empire and they won't be obsolete for a long time... discount macemen are still good! Sorry to say this, but if you require still more from then, they might be a crutch for you and you might be better served with trying a different civ.

There's nothing wrong with sueing for peace (hopefully extorting some tech, especially if it goes towards Currency/Code of Laws!) and renewing your war effort once the finances are in order. You might also consider pillaging for fun and profit if you really don't want more cities... helps your ailing finances and keeps another opponent down.

3. Epic is usually easier on Emperor and Deity, not sure about Immortal (because that's the level where barbarians are at their most annoying... on Deity, AIs expand quickly enough to keep them somewhat under control)

4. Worker, worker, grow building warriors, settler is generally a safe build order if you don't want to try for an early wonder and you have something useful to do for 2 workers... including chopping and building roads to future cities/trade partners/victims.
Workboat first is usually attractive if possible, and if I have a tile with more than 4 food I often grow a little before building the second worker.

5. Amount of overlap depends heavily on personal preference... I favour an ungodly amount of small cities with enough overlap that I don't need to worry about culture in most. 'No overlap and specialise heavily to make the most out of national wonders' also works though.
Desert tiles are mostly dead... but don't let that keep you from founding a city if there's something else to be had. In the case of multiple good food resources, you can simply run a ton of specialists not caring if the rest of the land is useless.
 
Well, the last two posters have given excellent responses to your questions, so I just have one short point there.

3) Epic speed is a little easier for warmongering/exploring and all that - much more pronounced on smaller maps (on a huge map, for instance, you could really exploit normal/quick because the time it takes an invasion to get to you would see you at the next level of technology...). Epic has a lot of impact on diplomacy though - 10 turn trades are not adjusted to speed; the AI also can make more demands/check for war more. So overall I wouldn't say either epic or normal is easier than the other - they're different in some situations but nowhere near as pronounced as either quick or marathon.

About difficulty on BtS - the AI has certainly been improved throughout the game. However, one very interesting thing I've felt with BtS is that it's much harder for the AI to actually win when it comes down to it (or rather, you can exploit it a lot better). Espionage owns space parts for the AI, and there's more total techs they have to research to get the parts (while you could sit back with an earlier internet). AI going for culture often fall hopelessly behind - and as a human you have no problem stabbing them at Friendly :rolleyes: So don't give up on games quite so early, there's a lot of avenues to come back with (in fact you can also use corps to huge advantage too, AI can't exploit them nearly as much as a human).
 
1. I usuall feel one should found one religion, bc of shrine and happiness. And this religion is usually judaism if I have stone nearby. Also monotheism is good for organised religion civic. Otherwise I go for meditation (which I usually lose) and then try to build oracle and found confucianism.

Unless I start with Mysticism, or pop it from a hut very early, I don't bother with any of the early religions. It's just too much of a crap shoot with a good chance of missing out and wasting all that research. If you really want to be assured of a religion in those cases, you should bee-line for Code of Laws and get Confucianism. If I go for all the Worker techs first then CoL, I'm 99% certain of getting it.

2. To be able to expand and have many armies requires code of laws + feudalism (so one can get vasslage = many units).

Don't go for Feudalism just because of the free units. The biggest strength of that civic is the extra XP. The free units aren't going to make that much difference.

3. Is epic harder than normal speed?

No, it's just scaled differently.

4. Usually I let the first city grow to size 3 then build worker if there is gold or somethig interesting nearby; in other case i build settler.

You're waiting too long. You can build a Worker right away if you wanted to, but you shouldn't wait any longer than a size 2 city.

Then comes the big question how one could cope without stonehenge and / or pyramids. So i usually try to build on of them.

Building early Wonders can be a trap. They require a huge amount of production that in most cases would be better used to make Settlers and military units, even some of your early buildings. Plus there's a good chance of another civ beating you to them. I won't build Stonehenge period, it's not worth it, and I will only try for Pyramids if I have a supply of Stone handy.

5. What is actually the benefit of settling a city on a plain hill?

An extra Hammer in your city tile and a 25% defence bonus.

Shall one plan cities not to overlap in the strongest sense? Meaning there should for instance be no more than 3 tiles overlap.

There's alot of debate on that issue. I try not overlap myself, at least with early cities.

I am also doubtful of founding cities close to deserts. I hate deserts.

Building a city right on a Desert tile is a good way of making use of otherwise useless terrain. Also Oil tends to appear in Deserts so you don't want to avoid them completely.
 
It is important to realize that you can get 8 cities easily by 1 AD even without war, huts, or anything else, and be in the green. Tech path will be dictated by the nearby AIs though.

As for how, that's a bit more precise. You'll need to work the correct tiles first, and build very little other than workers, settlers, and garrisons (granaries and border pops are the only early buildings here). There is no "balancing" wonders with expansion unless you have a lot of room. It's often that a wonder can cost you a city, or settling the city makes your wonder attempt too late.

IMO most wonders are overrated in most contexts. Slow speed huge ----> gwall is an exception. I suggest reading guides/strategy and tips for how people open their games. When they build workers, the tech order, etc. You've got to get the basics before you go into any advanced type strategy. I suggest playing a few games while deliberately avoiding all world wonders. Sometimes a wonder is your best move, but until people understand the tradeoffs associated with building military or wonders as opposed to expansion, it's hard to make an informed choice.
 
I am really very thankful for all these good analysis and answers. Thanks folks! I have realized CIV IV is a deeper game. I remember those times when I could beat CIV II and CIV I on higest levels, but it is different now...

I will come back when I have new questions. I went back to Standard CIV temporarily bc of the dificulty in BTS, but I am very impressed by BTS. But did n'tthey screw up the leader pics on Kublai Khan and the chinise in patch 3.17 ?? Also, which patch is the best?

Although I have gained quite a lot of good info here ,TheMeInTeam suggested basic setup opening game strategy articles on emperor-immortal. Do you have any specific articles?

/Alarik
 
The AI was hugely improved. It's bonuses at the higher levels have been cut in half as well from vanilla, and as you noted, it's still much harder!
 
I'm playing my first emperor game now, marathon speed, tectonics Mediterranean standard sized map at 200 AD. The main difference I have noticed is how much more city and unit maintenance is. 6 cities, I'm at zero science running a deficit! Luckily I have a good bottlenecks, plenty of safe settlement space, and my only neighbor likes me and is being attacked by his neighbor.
 
0% science and running a deficit. location sounds good but what's your economic plan?
 
Dont forget to customize your cities. Find a juicy spot for hammers, make a forge and barracks and ONLY crank out military units. As you tech further add in military buildings and settle a few great generals. Heroic epic is your friend in this city.

If you find an area with a lot of floodplains cottage them up, and get your financial modifiers in the city. That city alone will help you add cities and not crash your economy.

Also dont get stuck on making plantations on spices and dye. Just make one for the happiness and cottage the other ones. While at first you wont make as money commerce, but eventually a town will make more then the plantation
 
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