Rifles at 1000AD on immortal - how to get them

I was reading in an older post, dont recall exactly which one, that rifling should be hit at 1000 AD on immortal. I win on immortal about 2/3rds of my games but I hardly meet this timeline, even with marble and TGL/Parthenon. So I am wondering how other players do it -
0) Which leaders are best? Is it generally doable?
1) just by a buero capital (which size at lets say 1AD?) and the "normal" number of GPP(3-4)?.
2) With bulbing (do you bulb Lib or is it adviced to trade for machinery earlier in order to get rifling earlier?
3) getting it from lib? I find that tricky, usually even if I bulb philo, one of the AIs (Zara, Saladin...) aim for lib and get it around 1000AD. What do you research yourself in that scenario, what is save to trade for?

Perhaps if somebody finds the time, she/he could post a start and the save when rifling is reached. Thanks for sharing your experience.

This is very dependent on game speed and map type. Slower game speeds and more contact between AI's (which can be achieved by more AI and/or less water) will yield earlier rifling. I got 1160 rifling on a bad map with me on the slow continent by aggressively trading and getting lib. I didn't lib rifling though, just nationalism.
I traded for all of: Feudalism, Civil Service, Theology, Music, Paper, Education, Printing Press, Guilds, Banking, Economics, Constitution and Corporation EDIT: And Sci meth, physics and Communism. Self-teched Gunpowder Rep Parts and Rifling. Traded Astro and Optics with most people for this stuff, then eventually Education Lib and Nationalism, and even more eventually rifling. These trades made some of the most tech-advanced people even more advanced, but inside of 30 turns I went from backwards to running with the most advanced civs and crushed my whole continent which I had been behind for the bulk of the game. The game worked out well for me though, as it was quite dicey for a while. I was lucky that the most-backwards civs were the ones who were the masters on each continent (when the most advanced civ is the master on each continent, the game is over, as you'll have no one to trade with and everyone will be ahead of you).
but yeah, trading and bulbing and lib are all key. I had none of those techs in 700 AD, and all of those techs save constituition and corporation EDIT: AND Sci meth Communism and Physics by 1160 AD.

It's not always possible. Having Mansa in the game helps immensely. Religious tension will slow down the global tech pace as will multiple continents with no pre-Astro contact. Poor land and/or a leader with weak traits can add quite a few turns as well. Two main things get you there:

A quick academy and especially an early Oxford in a good bureau capital. This will do wonders for your tech pace right around that period when techs start costing 2000+ beakers. "Good bureau capital" of course assumes that you've been on top of your cottage development with helper cities before Civil Service, and that you've grown your capital to be able to work many tiles once CS is in. Being Financial helps a lot there.

Timely GP generation. Obviously being Philosophical makes this twice as easy, but you should know how to go about this without that crutch. Know how to spread your GP points around without leaving cities stuck unable to keep up with other GP farms and wasting those points. Know when it's time to switch out of slavery into caste system, when it's safe to take up a religion for pacifism, etc. You have to play the map so sometimes civics and religion will speed you along and other times you're forced to play it safe. Being spiritual is sooo so underrated for this. Most important with generating your GPs is preparing for and using your Golden Ages properly.

The bulb path to rifling is pretty hard to screw up, but one thing I failed to do a lot when I struggled on Immortal was avoiding Machinery to leave the Lib bulb open, which allows you to research it in 1 turn and that can be crucial for getting the tech you want. I used to take the first good trade for machinery I could, but really that's a tech you should be able to trade for whenever you want and you can usually get Machinery+something else useful for Lib, which helps the AI very little. In a game with good tech trading Printing Press can be a waste of a bulb. Bulbing Philo before anybody else gets it tends to discourage AIs from beelining Lib, this can be a major factor in taking something better as your free tech. So even though it seems like it makes more sense to wait and get 500-600 more beakers with a later bulb it's best to take Philo ASAP. Especially if you can safely use Pacifism. At the point where you start having to bulb PP/Astro/Scientific Method it can be a better idea to go for Great Merchants.

Beeing the first to Philosophy usually helps a lot when going for a later Lib date, as it does slow down the ais lib race(this has been pointed out a lot in the forum, the ai wants to found the religion and if it has been found already they don't prioritize that tech as much, which includes staying away from Lib). Bribing ais into war or make them stop trading with each others can also be important.

Other than that a good start and a strong leader choice should do the trick.

Oracling code of laws, if that is within reason should also be a good move in that direction.

0) I got 700 AD Rifling once in a game on a Boreal map that was without Mansa, so 1000 AD Rifling is very possible. Key is good diplomacy and getting good trades, being good at CIV-economy is important too though.

1) No idea, I don't count such things. I usually grow my Capital as much as possible, without missing out on Settlers if good other City spots are available, and GPs, just try to get 1 or 2 GSs for bulbing Education, maybe a 3rd for Lib, then skipping Machinery is needed.

2 + 3) Don't bulb Philo, better bulb Education. Block Paper, and your AIs won't be able to "select" Liberalism as a tech for research, often delays AI getting Liberalism for just as much as needed to Lib -> Rifling.

4. For savegames, look here i. e.

Hth.

Block Paper? Do you mean don't research Paper? That stops the AI from going for Liberalism?

Seraiel said:

2 + 3) Don't bulb Philo, better bulb Education. Block Paper, and your AIs won't be able to "select" Liberalism as a tech for research, often delays AI getting Liberalism for just as much as needed to Lib -> Rifling.

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This is not good advice.

Pyras are great for reaching mid-game techs, with rep. specialists giving early research power and great people points.
Ind and Phi are probably best, then Fin.
Ind not only for building wonders, but fail gold too and under nice circumstances the most powerful early game trait.

Mec AntiKythera said:

Block Paper? Do you mean don't research Paper? That stops the AI from going for Liberalism?

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MegaLurker said:

This is not good advice.

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Of course that is good advice.

With "blocking Paper" I referred to a tactic I used in many of my writeups, so I thought it would be clear that "not trading Paper to the AI in order to prevent them from selecting Liberalism as a research choice" was ment.

AI can choose techs that are 2 techs away from the techs it got, so if AI got no paper, AI isn't even able to choose to go for Liberalism.

Seraiel said:

Of course that is good advice.

With "blocking Paper" I referred to a tactic I used in many of my writeups, so I thought it would be clear that "not trading Paper to the AI in order to prevent them from selecting Liberalism as a research choice" was ment.

AI can choose techs that are 2 techs away from the techs it got, so if AI got no paper, AI isn't even able to choose to go for Liberalism.

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Yeah, it can definitely be good dvice. Though if trading paper is the difference between you being tech parity or falling behind, it is bad. But in my current game, I'm going to pull off a ~800AD rifling (hasn't happened yet, but lib is secure and will be rifling for sure), and I blocked off lib by not trading paper (I had a great commerce start -- long river, financial, 4x plains fur -- and was actually first to paper and philosophy, and blocked philosophy too for a long time; see "weird starts" in the general discussion), and if I wanted a deeper bulb, I could easily get one. I could have sci meth without changing anything, but could also get steam power or steel 100%, and maybe even railroads or assembly line. But I won't, because my drafted rifles are more than enough.
EDIT: Actually, assembly line would be a stretch, and it would definitely be a rifling-less assembly line, ie without any teeth.
2nd EDIT: Well, actually corporation is pretty cheap, and constitution isn't that expensive . Definitely do-able most of the time from my position.

Seraiel said:

Of course that is good advice.

With "blocking Paper" I referred to a tactic I used in many of my writeups, so I thought it would be clear that "not trading Paper to the AI in order to prevent them from selecting Liberalism as a research choice" was ment.

AI can choose techs that are 2 techs away from the techs it got, so if AI got no paper, AI isn't even able to choose to go for Liberalism.

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Except that many AIs will go for paper on their own. This doesn't block anything. Being first to Philosophy will directly prevent AIs from prioritizing it because they can no longer found Taoism. Between bulbing Paper or Philo as a monopoly tech it's not even close.

MegaLurker said:

Except that many AIs will go for paper on their own. This doesn't block anything. Being first to Philosophy will directly prevent AIs from prioritizing it because they can no longer found Taoism. Between bulbing Paper or Philo as a monopoly tech it's not even close.

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You don't understand.

Paper is a low priority tech to most AIs, I've often kept a monopoly on it and because of bulbing Edu, I often even finished research on that tech, so I could research Liberalism while no AI could have even chosen it.
If keeping the AIs at war constly, they'll prefer techs like Machinery and Engineering all before Paper.

The greatest disadvantage of bulbing Philo, is, that it costs a GS, and as AIs often go for it, it's usually tradeble, if having good relations, then the GS on Education really catapults one forward and makes one reach Liberalism earlier.

I also never said anything about bulbing Paper, bulbing Paper would be a poor choice, because one would get a lot more Beakers when bulbing Education.

The major difference is, that I use the AIs to my benefits, if you bulb Philo, you don't take the chance of AI researching it for you, and also slow down the AIs research of Nationalism, so you need to research 2 techs yourself that you otherwise could get easily through trade.

The last actually even is the reason, why I often trade CoL early, so that AIs can research Philo -> Nationalism earlier, granting me a better overal tech-speed which leads to earlier victory.

traius said:

This is very dependent on game speed and map type. Slower game speeds and more contact between AI's (which can be achieved by more AI and/or less water) will yield earlier rifling. I got 1160 rifling on a bad map with me on the slow continent by aggressively trading and getting lib. I didn't lib rifling though, just nationalism.

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It begs the question on why people even fixate on the game date. This is just a matter of keeping up with the AIs by brokering. If you get this tech on the ice age or other brown land scripts by 14/1500 I would call it a job well done.

As to game speed, below normal speed one would need to consider whether draft rifle is worth it at all. Hammer cannons, no question.

BELOW normal speed? As in quick? Yeah, probably.

As for my game I talked about above, I decided to lib assembly line if I could, and while I did, it was a mistake (1070AD assembly line seems pretty good though ). I could've taken over an entire neighbour ans slowed the enemy AI research rate if I had pushed it. They are just a short tech broker away from all having rifling now, and I could've beaten some of them down a lot sooner.

Seraiel said:

The greatest disadvantage of bulbing Philo, is, that it costs a GS, and as AIs often go for it, it's usually tradeble, if having good relations, then the GS on Education really catapults one forward and makes one reach Liberalism earlier.

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Blocking both is the sensible solution. I would usually go for music, use the GA for a GA (lol), which will usually give me 2+ GS, and bulb Philosophy. During the GA I will power through CS so that at the end of the golden age I can switch into the preferred civics (Bureaucracy included). Then I will shut down tech trade temporarily - and go for Paper + Bulb Edu (with one or two GS's, depending on what's available).

This puts the AIs in a position in which they don't have neither Paper nor Philosophy.

Yes, this slows down the global tech rate, so if your aim is an earlier victory it might be counterproductive, but is probably the more secure way of handling liberalism.

(Also gives the opportunity of selfteching Nationalism and building Taj where preferable.)

traius said:

i' m going to pull off a ~800AD rifling (hasn't happened yet, but lib is secure and will be rifling for sure), and I blocked off lib by not trading paper (I had a great commerce start -- long river, financial, 4x plains fur -- and was actually first to paper and philosophy, and blocked philosophy too for a long time; see "weird starts" in the general discussion), and if I wanted a deeper bulb, I could easily get one.

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That Sounds very much like what i would like to do from time to time at least. Perhaps you could post a screenshot and/or a save. Good luck with the game.

About blocking paper, in most of my games the ai that founds taoism goes directly for paper and there is no way stopping it from trading it around. Founding taoism myself seems more reliable in terms of delaying Lib.

I just did 920 AD rifling as Shaka
11 cities about to whip cav.


Rushed napoleon with impies and axes; blocked off most land, expanded to 12 cities.
Had a HOF capital too.

I think the main points were:

_HOF capital
_Immense land to work after killing Napoleon
_Early academy; early national epic; bulb philosophy to get pacifism.
_Being first to Music AND scoring MoM for well timed GA that netted me 1 merchant and 2 scientists ! 1 bulb into education, then another bulb into liberalism later. Meanwhile the merchant went to Athens to negotiate post oxford gold.
_ 600AD oxford.
_Afterwards got one more scientist to bulb into printing press.
_Traded for Military tradition.

The funny thing is, if I take Rome I might AP cheese for a stupid early win


Drool away :

Seraiel said:

Paper is a low priority tech to most AIs, I've often kept a monopoly on it and because of bulbing Edu, I often even finished research on that tech, so I could research Liberalism while no AI could have even chosen it.
If keeping the AIs at war constly, they'll prefer techs like Machinery and Engineering all before Paper.

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Your advice just makes so little sense. Paper is a low priority tech to most AIs. Therefor you should rush to get it first to "block" it.

"Low priority" is misleading. This depends on leader "flavor," and some random chance. I have never thought of Paper and Education as particularly low priority. If Philo has been traded around and Lib is still open many AIs will go straight for them, and having researched it first yourself makes absolutely no difference. Any AI that has Theo as their favourite civic will unlock paper very early, increasing the probability of them self-teching it. Note that there isn't a single AI in the game that has Pacifism as their favourite civic. Being at war makes little or no difference to AI tech choice. AIs will often prioritize Machinery and Engineering because they unlock things and are on paths that unlock more shiny things. AI tech choice is not very smart.

The greatest disadvantage of bulbing Philo, is, that it costs a GS, and as AIs often go for it, it's usually tradeble, if having good relations, then the GS on Education really catapults one forward and makes one reach Liberalism earlier.

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Man, it's like talking to a brick wall. AIs often go for it...unless Taoism has already been founded. Which is the entire point of bulbing it. You don't choose between bulbing Philo and bulbing Education. You do both. Pacifism kind of helps a lot with that in most game. Saving an early GS with a very strong bulb already open is poor play.

The major difference is, that I use the AIs to my benefits, if you bulb Philo, you don't take the chance of AI researching it for you, and also slow down the AIs research of Nationalism, so you need to research 2 techs yourself that you otherwise could get easily through trade.

The last actually even is the reason, why I often trade CoL early, so that AIs can research Philo -> Nationalism earlier, granting me a better overal tech-speed which leads to earlier victory.

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You said bulbing Philo is a bad play. It's not. That's really all there is to it. The rest of your post is unrelated.

You don't understand.

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I think I understand quite well, thank you very much.

Regular map players comparing opinions with HoF players just rarely works, i learned that by now
You are probably both right, but for your own sort of games.

traius said:

BELOW normal speed? As in quick? Yeah, probably.

As for my game I talked about above, I decided to lib assembly line if I could, and while I did, it was a mistake (1070AD assembly line seems pretty good though ). I could've taken over an entire neighbour ans slowed the enemy AI research rate if I had pushed it. They are just a short tech broker away from all having rifling now, and I could've beaten some of them down a lot sooner.

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Eh, below as in slower, i.e. epic or marathon. Sorry for the confusion. Drafting on quick is fine, at least whenever wars are "fine" there; on epic I think it gets iffy because recovery gaps start widening up; and on marathon it is completely sub-par. HAMMER CANNONS WOO!

In a game as fast as the one you describe, I would have to wonder about the emphasis on stomping neighbors at all — I was trying to point out that an early tech benchmark on immortal is done through trading, which means that the AIs are also very close to the tech, so how much does it really matter.