Permanent Alliance. When do you get them?

I was playing an OCC the other day, on monarch, large/marathon, with Ramesses. I didn't have any problems, but I didn't think I could ever win. I was in the lower half at score, and was neck to neck with mabye... 3 civs tech-wise. Except for psicho Mansa Musa who had a couple of techs ahead of me.

Te only one I had fairly good relations with, was Willem van Oranje (about +9).
He had a colony, but he didn't excell at anything... He asks me to join his war against Mansa Musa. Problem was I had no coal, and no oil. and we were already at combustion... I said no, but then I accepted another proposal of the same thing from Shaka - DOW on Musa - because I was getting bored.

I had a huge armada ... of frigates, that I spent on killing one distroyer of Musa, , but then it was prettty quiet, so, to get a piece of the action, I rebased ... about 7 airships in Willem's cities (next to Musa), and started to bomb Musa's distroyers. I think Willem didn't have oil either, because he was also struggling against destroyers...
anyway... after a while, willem made peace with Musa, and in the same turn, I did the same.

And then, after a couple of turns, completly out of the blue, Willem comes to me and asks to make a permanent alliance.

I imediately jumped at the top of the score list (after Willem, ofc), but easily won the game after that.

My question is this: are there any other factors that would make an AI do that (other than the relations)?
or was it just dumb luck.
I tend to think that because I activelly helped him protect his cities... that might have helped... because other than that, I had the same situation in more games than I can count, and never got a Permanent Alliance...

Relations and having been in a war together or a mutual (sp?) protection pact for a long time, are the main factors for the AI signing a PA

I had no defensive pact... or anything...
and that was the only war we were both in

The only other thing was that he was the only one that didn't switch to theocracy to thwart my 3 religion missionaries, and later didn't try to stop my executives either... He switched to free religion as soon as he could.... Maybe... that also helped... dunno

Maybe he's just friendly... despite his looks

Long time defensive pact and/or mutual war will make permanent alliance available. Of course for defensive pact, relation should be good.

Have to share a war or pact for 40 turns (same for every speed) and neither of you can be #1 in power. And most leaders you have to be friendly with (some you can do with pleased).

Correct, you have to be friendly with them except for these 4 leaders, who will sign it when pleased: De Gaulle, Peter,Qin Shi Huang, Ramesses. (from bts xml)

I didn't know about the can't be #1 in power rule.. is that a BTS change?

Always been that way. They will say "You've grown to powerful for us" if you're #1 and "We're doing fine on our own" they're #1.

oedali said:

Correct, you have to be friendly with them except for these 4 leaders, who will sign it when pleased: De Gaulle, Peter,Qin Shi Huang, Ramesses. (from bts xml)

I didn't know about the can't be #1 in power rule.. is that a BTS change?

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So ... I guess that since I was Ramesses, Willem thought I will accept...

I personally have never (before this) seen an AI proposing Permanent Alliance to me before. (It's true that I'm not much of a diplomatic mastermind in my civ games... but still....)

Actually it doesn't matter which civ you play. The AI's attitute towards you is what matters. In this case, Willem was friendly with you so and you were at mutual war together long enough so he offered it.

Permanent alliances is a game option that's off by default. It's definitely fun to play with it on though. It makes having a civ friendly with you throughout the game even more important.

I know that. I was just kidding. I actually thought he was just pleased with me when it happened... but the relations must have improved after the last time I looked (and before the alliance). It was still quite surprising.

I'll play this more often from now on. Now that I know how it works.

Some extra info :
Alexander, Napoleon and Tokugawa (I don't know about the BTS leaders) will never join a PA.

the only PA i have ever had was with Izzy....strangely enough. we didnt even share the same religion!

i like to leave PAs on because it adds excitement when the AIs sign one . they sure do on high levels, lost me quite a few games!

in OCC PAs are quite funny. i'll sign one and my score jumps (often from last place to first, due to the population/land area part) but my tech rate usually goes down even if i ask them to join me on the same tech *giggle*.

Tatran said:

Some extra info :
Alexander, Napoleon and Tokugawa (I don't know about the BTS leaders) will never join a PA.

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Good point, that still holds in all pre-BTS versions but in BTS they changed it so they now do sign it at friendly.

KMadCandy said:

i like to leave PAs on because it adds excitement when the AIs sign one . they sure do on high levels, lost me quite a few games!

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That's interesting, I used to play with PA on in Warlords and then decided that it made the game too easy. I'd focus on getting a PA asap and then not play the game to the end since my score would be really really high. I didn't play it to the end to see which of the AIs sign among themselves and get the score boost.. maybe I'll have to try this out on my next BTS game! Might be challenging contrary to what I thought. What difficulty level do you play on?

oedali said:

That's interesting, I used to play with PA on in Warlords and then decided that it made the game too easy. I'd focus on getting a PA asap and then not play the game to the end since my score would be really really high. I didn't play it to the end to see which of the AIs sign among themselves and get the score boost.. maybe I'll have to try this out on my next BTS game! Might be challenging contrary to what I thought. What difficulty level do you play on?

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oh i change around like the oddball i am. first few BtS games were on warlord to try out the new stuff, Warlords OCCs i play on Deity*. in non-OCC games i leave PAs on but 95% don't sign them myself even when offered, it's there to make it harder for myself. in deity games where the world has been mostly peaceful thru the ages (like i'm going for diplo victory and not trying to stir up trouble), they sign DPs quite early and those'll turn into PAs if the game goes long enough. not on quick, since the 40-turn limit is the same on all game speeds, but i almost always play epic, sometimes normal.

i'm not typically a warmonger, and i'm thrilled to read that alex will now sign PAs! he's my bestest attack puppy when i do need to go to war and borrow somebody else to actually fight for me. i've soooooooo often felt guilty in games where i have slaughtered everybody, since he's always the last one i have to turn on. he's been faithful to the end and i actually do feel terrible about it. now we can share the win like we ought to, yay! i actually went to check the .xml to be sure about it, not that i don't trust you but it's SUCH good news i had to be sure i didn't have my hopes up for nothing. yay, you made my day

*note: OCC is the only way i even think about deity, since IMO OCC is a huge advantage there, i don't have to think about the landgrab, which is where they get a huge advantage. if i was playing non-OCC on deity i'd not last til 3600 BC. so don't get the impression that i'm not a permanoob *giggle*

KMadCandy said:

in OCC PAs are quite funny. i'll sign one and my score jumps (often from last place to first, due to the population/land area part) but my tech rate usually goes down even if i ask them to join me on the same tech *giggle*.

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I noticed that too.... Why is that? (the tech going down)

tomaalimosh said:

I noticed that too.... Why is that? (the tech going down)

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when you're a team, the cost in beakers of a tech goes up to reflect that. and when the other team member gets a GP, the cost for your next one goes up (i think by half what it would if you'd gotten your own). stuff like that.

Wow... that really sucks... hmmm ... I guess these alliances aren't... THAT great after all

tomaalimosh said:

Wow... that really sucks... hmmm ... I guess these alliances aren't... THAT great after all

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well you get benefits too. you share all wonder effects (except taj mahal and versailles, those are the ones i can think of atm anyway). i built 3GD and Eiffel Tower in OCC once *giggle* because i was planning on a PA with Louis (but he wasn't really Louis, it was random personalities). and you can tech two different things if you want to, sometimes that's an advantage. you have more cities to produce things in, be it troops for war or parts for a spaceship. btw if you don't want to win by space race, stick one part in the back of your queue and just never build it, since two cities on the team can't build the same team project or world wonder at the same time. in BtS it has to be a part that requires only 1 of course.

in OCC it just goes down so dramatically because i have one SUPER city and i'm paying no maintenance. he's paying city maintenance and sometimes a lot of troop support, and the AI has to use automated worker logic and doesn't typically manage commerce or specialists as well, so ya know...