Miscellaneous questions

Edit: Thanks for answering my first 6 questions. I've posted an additional 3 in a post below. Thanks again!

I just got back into Civ. Finding answers to certain questions isn't always easy because it seems like the expansions and patches have made old info around the web obsolete. Alas:

(All of these questions relate to BNW with the most recent patch)

1. What are the penalties for additional cities, in terms of the additional costs to discover science and get new social policies? Is it 5% for each new city? Does the penalty apply to puppet cities? Are your first few cities "free" (i.e. have no penalties)? I understand that on larger maps the science penalty gets scaled (i.e. the penalty isn't as severe), but does that apply to the social policy penalty as well?

2. If I build a road through a teammate's territory to connect to my capital, do I get a city connection? Can I use a teammate's harbor to get a city connection?

3. Is there an additional warmongering penalty for taking a civ's last city?

4. Is there any benefit to having a natural wonder within a city's borders, but on a tile that can't be worked?

5. Does working a tile with a workboat "use" a citizen from the city? Tiles with workboats can be worked even if they are more than 3 tiles away from the city, right?

6. How many civs in a game can found a pantheon? Can the same number found a religion? The Faith cost to found pantheons and religions goes up every time another civ founds one, right?

Thanks in advance

1. The penalty is for all cities, annexed or puppet. I think it is 5% on smaller maps and 2-3% on larger maps per city (tech cost increase). No cities are free

2. No and no

3. I don't think there is a specific penalty for destroying a whole civilization, though the warmonger penalty will be more severe.

4. I think a few natural wonders give happiness if it's in the civs borders, though it does not specify if it has to be worked or not.

5. All tiles that are workable by a city put a citizen to work. Producing/buying a workboat from a city will not remove a citizen. Yes, you can still improve the resource in your borders if it is farther than 3 tiles away from the city, but the city will not benefit from it. You will still get the resource though, if it's a strategic/luxury resource.

6. I believe pantheons can be founded until the first enhancement of a religion, then they are done. All civs can found a pantheon. Not all civs can found a religion, depending on the map size there is a limit to number of religions. And yes, the faith cost does go up for each pantheon founded.
Hope this helped!

Is it 5% for each new city? For science yes, on standard, and it applies to puppets. For policies, it's 10% but only applies if you annex. I don't think larger maps change the policy penalty but I'm not sure.

2. If I build a road through a teammate's territory to connect to my capital, do I get a city connection? Can I use a teammate's harbor to get a city connection? By teammate, do you mean an AI ally or allied CS? I know if it's a CS, whether it's just a friend or ally, it counts as a connection. I believe if it's a civ you have to be allies for it to count.

3. Is there an additional warmongering penalty for taking a civ's last city? I don't know the mechanics, but yes, there's extra hate for eliminating a civ.

4. Is there any benefit to having a natural wonder within a city's borders, but on a tile that can't be worked? Most natural wonders have food, science and/or faith yields. The only other benefits are if you have the faith pantheon that gives you four additional faith for natural wonders, or there's a World congress proposal that gives all natural wonders 5 culture I believe.

5. Does working a tile with a workboat "use" a citizen from the city? Tiles with workboats can be worked even if they are more than 3 tiles away from the city, right? It does use a citizen of the city, if it's in the city's three ring radius. If it's outside of the radius, or if it's not worked, you can still benefit from it (if it's oil outside the radius, you'll get the oil resources added, but you won't get the benefits of the tile itself.

6. How many civs in a game can found a pantheon? Can the same number found a religion? The Faith cost to found pantheons and religions goes up every time another civ founds one, right? I THINK anyone can found a pantheon. There are only a certain number of religions that can be found, depends on the size of the world. The cost to found a pantheon goes up every time someone gets one. For religion, however, it stays the same, once you get your 200 (or so) faith, (on standard speed), you'll get your great prophet.

Hope that helps.

On #2 only open borders is required for it to count for roads/railroads. (I often get city connections through AI while open borders are intact only to have connections sever when they expire).

For using harbors, I think you must be Teammates or allies (not tested harbors much since I tend to build plenty of my own).

#3 Yes, more hate for last city since it adds "Eliminating a civilization" hate.

#4 Depends on wonders. Some grant happiness just for being in borders (like Old Faithful)

#5 Workboats just add improvements (much like workers) so they do not require a citizen to do so; however apart from connecting the resource you get no bonuses from that tile until you put a citizen working it.

6. All can found pantheons, only religion is limited (and it is based on map size alone, no other factors)

People are a little bit mistaken on question #3. Since BNW, there is no more "Eliminating a civilization" hate. What exists is a hate calculated taking into account the difference between the number of cities you have and the number of cities your enemy has. So eliminating a civ means destroying a 1-city civ, which gives you an extreme penalty, but it is not because you are eliminating them, it is just because it is their last city. The penalty from taking a city from a 2-city civilization is almost as severe. And if you are doing OCC, the penalty gets less severe. Also note that city-states are considered 1-city civs, so taking out a CS will always yield a severe penalty.

Blitz Spearman said:

Also note that city-states are considered 1-city civs, so taking out a CS will always yield a severe penalty.

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This is mitigated by something... whether it is global city count or current turn/era I've had some of my slower paced games where killing CS dropped to Major and eventually Minor.

Might also have been a factor of how much the remaining civs already hated me... maybe the penalty was close to maximum.

Everyone has mostly nailed this, there are some points I'd like to clarify, however.

Taking cities has different effects based on a number of factors. When you're at war, you can hover over the city and it will tell you what the warmonger penalty will be (Major, Minor,or Extreme I believe). Eliminating a Civilization or City-State completely gives you an Extreme warmonger penalty.

Regardless of your culture border expansion, a city can only work the first three rings. For Fish, it's not worth it to improve them outside of the 3 rings of your cities. For Crab, Pearls, Whales, and Oil, it's still worth improving them to get the resource, though you don't get the Food/Hammers/Gold from the tile. For Natural Wonders, having them outside of your 3 rings makes gem unworkable, but the Fountain of Youth and Old Faithful will give you happiness. One with Nature (the pantheon that gives Natural Wonders +4 Faith) and Natural Landmarks (World Congress proposal that gives Culture for National Wonders) don't give you any benefit unless you have the Natural Wonder in your 3 rings and assign a citizen to work it.

If you're not familiar with citizen management, I would watch Beyond the Monument episode 23. MadDjinn goes over the benefits of manually assigning citizens to tiles in order to get the most out of your cities.

Good luck!


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Thanks everyone for the very helpful information and advice!

A few more questions:

1. With the social policy that causes no unit maintenance for units garrisoned in a city, I assume it only applies to land military units, right? I.e., it probably doesn't apply to any aircraft, great people, naval units, architects or workers that are sitting in the city, right?

2. Do you get any permanent penalties from a CS if you steal its worker at the beginning of the game?

3. Regarding your cities on an overseas continent, assuming that they have city connections to your capital because at least one has a harbor and they are connected to it by roads, is there any benefit to upgrading those roads to railroads, other than to move units faster? My understanding is that since they are ultimately connected by a harbor, they don't get the productivity bonus that comes with direct connections to the capital by railroads, but am I missing something else?

Thanks!

#1 Just military
#2 Not permanent. Just 60 points of pure hate... that goes away after awhile.
#3 I don't know how that bonus works.

3. Harbors are auto railroads.

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My understanding is that the culture cost of policies increase is exponential per city, and the science increase per tech is linear, is that correct? If so, it's an important distinction.

the_jeff said:

My understanding is that the culture cost of policies increase is exponential per city, and the science increase per tech is linear, is that correct? If so, it's an important distinction.

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Yes, this is correct.
However, it is easier to get culture when expanding relative to your capital's total output. It's much harder to get science since it's so population based. This is especially an issue in endgame if you don't have rationalism's trade post bonus.




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Both are "linear" (in the sense that you describe), neither is "exponential".

In both cases, the increase is the relevant per-city percentage multiplied by the number of cities. For example, culture costs (Standard map, ignoring Representation) are in the form of 1 + (0.15 x (Number of cities - 1)), not some exponential or power formulation. So, a 6-city empire will have culture costs that are simply 75% higher (15% x 5 extra cities) than a 1-city empire.

Is that a change from Vanilla that I missed? I know they cut back the percentage, but I could swear that at some point it was exponential, i.e. when vanilla was first released it would have been cost*.30^(# of cities - 1).

Sorry, I meant compounded. So, culture penalty for your 5th city will be more than your 2nd city. Is that not exponential? Science is not compounded, it just increases the cost by a flat 5% of the original base research cost per city. So, the 5th city increases science cost by the same as your 2nd city.

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Okay, I have a miscellaneous question of my own:

Is it possible to permanently suppress a foreign religion by swamping the holy city with missionaries or great prophets?

Helmling said:

Okay, I have a miscellaneous question of my own:

Is it possible to permanently suppress a foreign religion by swamping the holy city with missionaries or great prophets?

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Not as long as the AI who founded the religion still controls it. While converting enough cities around it might generate enough pressure to overwhelm the internal pressure of the Holy City, any GP they get (either from accumulated Faith or purchased with Faith after Industrial) will be of the religion they founded and able to reconvert the city back to their religion with one action.

The only way to eradicate the religion is to conquer the Holy City - and ultimately the Civilization that founded it to be truly thorough - and hit it with an Inquisitor (which removes Holy City status and the internal religious pressure - and that can never be regained) or, if it isn't a capital, raze it.