Wonder Elimination Thread

I guess what I'm trying to say is that when I want to grow a city I take steps that are more readily available to me like working a couple good food tiles or building a granary trying than trying to get a wonder to do the job. And by the time I even consider getting to currency I at least have gone up to writing and iron working, it would be even more delayed if I need to hook up trapping or calender resources and by then the AI, at least in my games, have already or are in the middle of building it. I see how it can be used to not have to work food tiles as much and focus more on gold and production and when used in combination with things like Tradition and Maritime CS's to grow like nuts, but there are other wonders in the early game that I would MUCH rather try to build.

Indeed, I just went for it and hadn't finished researching Mathematics before the AI (Immortal) got it. But that can happen with any Wonder (and I had a start with no plantation luxuries, although I did need to tech to Sailing for whales) - it also happened with Petra, and since I'd pretty much screwed my economy rushing for that (second city was all desert, with Barringer Crater, a couple of oases, wheat, a couple of hills with sheep, floodplains and incense - downside is that city had no food to grow, and so Petra would have taken over 60 turns), that's game over as far as I'm concerned for that one. Nevertheless, you can do without luxuries at that stage in the game, and I rarely prioritise either Trapping or Ironworking, so it can still be a quick tech progression.

There aren't, however, many other Wonders I'd want to build that early most of the time - you won't get Stonehenge on Immortal either, and often not the Oracle. Certainly not the Lighthouse if any AIs are close to the coast.

The Pyramids is good if you don't go Liberty, but it's on a necessary tech path and the AI never prioritises it anyway, so it can wait a bit and so isn't competition for Hanging Gardens.

Above Emperor, you can guarantee that the Great Library will just slow your tech progression by costing you time you could have spent building a normal library - but even if you get it it's a much less significant boost than the Gardens. And Mausoleum of Helicarnassus doesn't count because it's excluded from this poll...

Great Wall comes slightly too late to usefully stop the early rushes on Immortal, and does very little to help you in general. Colossus and Terracotta Army, as discussed at length here, aren't terribly good. That only really leaves the Theology Wonders, which have the advantage of falling along a very common early tech path but are both prioritised by the AI - and both are only useful if there are still religions on offer by this point in the game.
 
Not sure why the Colossus hate. It's a classic era +5 gold/turn just from building it, nothing to laugh at. Then +1 gold for every sea tile used; great for resources, decent for coast if you grow big enough. +1 culture and +1 merchant points. It's a good pickup if you need to hit Iron early or are moving down the production paths. Since the AI heads for Civil, it's also not hard to nab this one.
 
There aren't, however, many other Wonders I'd want to build that early most of the time - you won't get Stonehenge on Immortal either, and often not the Oracle. Certainly not the Lighthouse if any AIs are close to the coast.

The Pyramids is good if you don't go Liberty, but it's on a necessary tech path and the AI never prioritises it anyway, so it can wait a bit and so isn't competition for Hanging Gardens.

Above Emperor, you can guarantee that the Great Library will just slow your tech progression by costing you time you could have spent building a normal library - but even if you get it it's a much less significant boost than the Gardens. And Mausoleum of Helicarnassus doesn't count because it's excluded from this poll...

Great Wall comes slightly too late to usefully stop the early rushes on Immortal, and does very little to help you in general. Colossus and Terracotta Army, as discussed at length here, aren't terribly good. That only really leaves the Theology Wonders, which have the advantage of falling along a very common early tech path but are both prioritised by the AI - and both are only useful if there are still religions on offer by this point in the game.

Personally out side of The Great Library, Stonehenge, and The Pyramids I don't build many Ancient/Classical wonders unless they give bonuses to a some what common resource around my city. I'm more of a Prince/King player so I can get wonders that I try for with a pretty good success rate so I don't have any experience trying for wonders at higher levels, but from what I've seen from LPs they tend to go quick.
 
Alhambra 20
Big Ben 23
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 25
CN Tower 2
Colossus 17
Cristo Redentor 19
Eiffel Tower 24
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Library 24
Great Lighthouse 21
Great Mosque of Djenne 15
Great Wall 8
Hagia Sophia 23
Himeji Castle 20
Hanging Gardens 22
Hubble 25
Kremlin 7
Leaning Tower of Pisa 20
Louvre 21
Machu Picchu 21
Neuschwanstein Castle 23
Notre Dame 25
Oracle 25
Petra 26
Porcelain Tower 22
Pyramids 22
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 21
Stonehenge 21
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 22

+1 to the GL, my Immortal Slingshot in non-naval games.
-2 to the Kremlin, a building I have only ever built for the +culture and had literally nothing else to build
 
Alhambra 20
Big Ben 23
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 25
CN Tower 2
Colossus 17
Cristo Redentor 17
Eiffel Tower 24
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Library 24
Great Lighthouse 21
Great Mosque of Djenne 15
Great Wall 8
Hagia Sophia 23
Himeji Castle 20
Hanging Gardens 22
Hubble 25
Kremlin 7
Leaning Tower of Pisa 20
Louvre 21
Machu Picchu 21
Neuschwanstein Castle 23
Notre Dame 25
Oracle 26
Petra 26
Porcelain Tower 22
Pyramids 22
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 21
Stonehenge 21
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 22

+1 for the Oracle. Something I go for almost every game and have a realistic chance of getting it my level (immortal). Close second would be Brandenburg Gate.

Not sure why there is the hate for the Kremlin. I love it

-2 Cristo. It comes too late to be of much use.
 
Alhambra 20
Big Ben 23
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 25
CN Tower 2
Colossus 17
Cristo Redentor 17
Eiffel Tower 24
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Library 24
Great Lighthouse 19 (-2)
Great Mosque of Djenne 15
Great Wall 8
Hagia Sophia 23
Himeji Castle 20
Hanging Gardens 22
Hubble 25
Kremlin 7
Leaning Tower of Pisa 21 (+1)
Louvre 21
Machu Picchu 21
Neuschwanstein Castle 23
Notre Dame 25
Oracle 26
Petra 26
Porcelain Tower 22
Pyramids 22
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 21
Stonehenge 21
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 22

Downvote for the lighthouse, it goes too early and is too weak to justify diverting precious hammers in such a crucial phase of the game.

A contrario the LTP comes at a time when I usually have production and time in my capital, and the bonus plays well with any kind of game.
 
Alhambra 20
Big Ben 23
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 25
CN Tower 2
Colossus 17
Cristo Redentor 17
Eiffel Tower 24
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Library 24
Great Lighthouse 19 (-2)
Great Mosque of Djenne 15
Great Wall 9
Hagia Sophia 23
Himeji Castle 20
Hanging Gardens 22
Hubble 25
Kremlin 7
Leaning Tower of Pisa 21 (+1)
Louvre 21
Machu Picchu 21
Neuschwanstein Castle 23
Notre Dame 25
Oracle 26
Petra 26
Porcelain Tower 22
Pyramids 20
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 21
Stonehenge 21
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 22

+1 for the Great Wall again. It'S better than several wonders that have more points on the list.

-2 for the Pyramids. They aren't bad, but they have to compete with Stonehenge, the Great Library and early military or Settlers for production. I almost never try to build them.
 
Alhambra 20
Big Ben 23
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 25
CN Tower 2
Colossus 17
Cristo Redentor 17
Eiffel Tower 24
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Library 24
Great Lighthouse 20
Great Mosque of Djenne 15
Great Wall 9
Hagia Sophia 23
Himeji Castle 20
Hanging Gardens 22
Hubble 25
Kremlin 5
Leaning Tower of Pisa 21
Louvre 21
Machu Picchu 21
Neuschwanstein Castle 23
Notre Dame 25
Oracle 26
Petra 26
Porcelain Tower 22
Pyramids 20
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 21
Stonehenge 21
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 22

Great Lighthouse: It might take some time to construct but when going for a naval game this wonder can be really useful. Using a naval civ and Commerce, you can use it really good for (early) exploration and sea domination.

Kremlin: Never found it useful. My weakest moments are usually earlier in the game and even then I do not allow the AI to capture my cities. By the time you can build the Kremlin you should spend more on securing your borders rather than boosting your city defenses.

Surprised to see that the Great Wall receives so little love. I've found it to be useful on multiple occasions and its definitely a wonder to construct if you intent to go for world domination. Trying to conquer someones land with sluggish unit movement can cost you quite a lot of units.
 
Not sure why the Colossus hate. It's a classic era +5 gold/turn just from building it, nothing to laugh at. Then +1 gold for every sea tile used; great for resources, decent for coast if you grow big enough. +1 culture and +1 merchant points. It's a good pickup if you need to hit Iron early or are moving down the production paths. Since the AI heads for Civil, it's also not hard to nab this one.

Where's the +5 per turn from building it? Has it changed in G&K?

Personally out side of The Great Library, Stonehenge, and The Pyramids I don't build many Ancient/Classical wonders unless they give bonuses to a some what common resource around my city. I'm more of a Prince/King player so I can get wonders that I try for with a pretty good success rate so I don't have any experience trying for wonders at higher levels, but from what I've seen from LPs they tend to go quick.

Pyramids is always obtainable and usually most useful slightly later than Gardens. I tend not to go for Stonehenge mostly because it's unobtainable at high levels, but even where available it's not that critical. A shrine is enough to found a Pantheon - although a full-blown religion is trickier, I can wait on that until I hit Theology and Great Mosque (which, let's not forget, is an effective +6 faith since the mosque it provides doesn't prevent you building other faith buildings). It is however valid competition for the Gardens (which is why I said "name two" rather than "name one" alternative...) And the Great Library genuinely isn't that good unless you need to rush a very specific tech path, which is difficult to do as usefully with the G&K tech tree as with the vanilla one (where going for Philosophy gave you Research Agreements and put you one tech away from both university and the Porcelain Tower). Unless I'm Maya going for the Theology beeline, I won't try for GL even if I have a good chance of getting it. It takes about 10 turns more than a library to complete with most starts, so a Wonder that gives you a one-off tech boost of, say, 100 beakers if you go for the most expensive available techs nets you rather less, since you lose 10 turns of library output at a cost of 1 beaker per citizen per turn.

Downvote for the lighthouse, it goes too early and is too weak to justify diverting precious hammers in such a crucial phase of the game.

Exploration is important that early in the game. The Lighthouse has a very short window of opportunity at the time it becomes available - you have to grab it very early even if the AI doesn't for it to be useful in exploration - but when you do it's valuable. And late-game it comes back into its own with extra sight for battleships and submarines.

-2 for the Pyramids. They aren't bad, but they have to compete with Stonehenge, the Great Library and early military or Settlers for production. I almost never try to build them.

I also rarely build them, but they have the saving grace that they are useful if built slightly later than some other classical Wonders - they're also much more obtainable at higher levels than the other two, and it's nice to have some Wonders the AI misses that are actually useful, rather than being stuck with Terracotta Army.
 
Big Ben 23
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 25
CN Tower 0 (-2)
Colossus 17
Cristo Redentor 17
Eiffel Tower 24
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Library 24
Great Lighthouse 20
Great Mosque of Djenne 15
Great Wall 9
Hagia Sophia 23
Himeji Castle 20
Hanging Gardens 22
Hubble 25
Kremlin 5
Leaning Tower of Pisa 21
Louvre 21
Machu Picchu 21
Neuschwanstein Castle 23
Notre Dame 25
Oracle 27 (+1)
Petra 26
Porcelain Tower 22
Pyramids 20
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 21
Stonehenge 21
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 22

Oracle + 1: Free social policy is just too good, especially since you're likely to hit your next natural policy soon after getting it. Just a great opportunity to shape the direction of your empire for little cost.

CN Tower -2: Not a bad wonder, it just comes too late after the availability of the broadcast tower to be useful. Sure you get your old towers maintenance free, but it just loses so much potential.
 
Third day, third vote:

Alhambra 20
Big Ben 23
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 25
CN Tower 0
Colossus 17
Cristo Redentor 17
Eiffel Tower 24
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Library 24
Great Lighthouse 20
Great Mosque of Djenne 13 (-2)
Great Wall 9
Hagia Sophia 23
Himeji Castle 20
Hanging Gardens 22
Hubble 25
Kremlin 5
Leaning Tower of Pisa 21
Louvre 21
Machu Picchu 21
Neuschwanstein Castle 23
Notre Dame 25
Oracle 27
Petra 26
Porcelain Tower 22
Pyramids 20
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 22 (+1)
Stonehenge 21
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 22

Voting similar to the past. Love SoL and it's production bonus for all specialists.

Down voting GMOD as I find it to be not worth my time at a point in my research where I have so many better/other things to be building.
 
Alhambra 20
Big Ben 23
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 25
CN Tower 0
Colossus 17
Cristo Redentor 15
Eiffel Tower 24
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Library 24
Great Lighthouse 20
Great Mosque of Djenne 14
Great Wall 9
Hagia Sophia 23
Himeji Castle 20
Hanging Gardens 22
Hubble 25
Kremlin 5
Leaning Tower of Pisa 21
Louvre 21
Machu Picchu 21
Neuschwanstein Castle 23
Notre Dame 25
Oracle 27
Petra 26
Porcelain Tower 22
Pyramids 20
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 22
Stonehenge 21
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 22

Upvoting Great Mosque as a slight buffer against elimination, since it's a lot better than it's being given credit for despite there perhaps being better things to build than Wonders at the point when it becomes available. Really, +6 faith, +4 culture, +1 happiness and a Great Engineer point isn't worth a Classical Era Wonder, even without the missionary buff? Sure, it's less useful if you actually do include Mosques among your beliefs, but even then it saves you 200-300 faith you'd need to use to buy one, which isn't trivial (indeed by itself it's a match for the Hagia Sophia's effective bonus). Also on my list of Wonders that deserve to be, although it's not one I've visited (it was provisionally on this year's itinerary, but ... well).

Finally downvoting Cristo Redentor. I'm not even too clear on what it does; I've won cultural victories without it, and as mentioned earlier in the thread, this is my pet peeve among the "Wonders that shouldn't be". Plus the Kremlin doesn't need any help getting eliminated - fully agreed that it's not useful, and I've only ever built it the once for the 'Build all Wonders' achievement. And one of my friends is perpetually annoyed that the Kremlin is the Wonder while St Basil's is the building depicted (in both Civ IV and Civ V)...
 
Alhambra 20
Big Ben 23
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 25
CN Tower 0
Colossus 15
Cristo Redentor 17
Eiffel Tower 24
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Library 24
Great Lighthouse 20
Great Mosque of Djenne 13
Great Wall 9
Hagia Sophia 23
Himeji Castle 20
Hanging Gardens 22
Hubble 25
Kremlin 5
Leaning Tower of Pisa 21
Louvre 21
Machu Picchu 21
Neuschwanstein Castle 23
Notre Dame 25
Oracle 27
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 22
Pyramids 20
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 22
Stonehenge 21
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 22
 
Alhambra 20
Big Ben 23
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 25
CN Tower 0
Colossus 15
Cristo Redentor 17
Eiffel Tower 24
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Library 24
Great Lighthouse 20
Great Mosque of Djenne 13
Great Wall 7
Hagia Sophia 23
Himeji Castle 20
Hanging Gardens 22
Hubble 26
Kremlin 5
Leaning Tower of Pisa 21
Louvre 21
Machu Picchu 21
Neuschwanstein Castle 23
Notre Dame 25
Oracle 27
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 22
Pyramids 20
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 22
Stonehenge 21
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 22

Same votes as before, for the same reasons.

I really like how informative this thread has become. It's fun to vote but also fun just to read the discourse on each wonder and their uses/advantages/disadvantages and such.
 
Alhambra 20
Big Ben 23
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 25
Colossus 15
Cristo Redentor 17
Eiffel Tower 24
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Library 22
Great Lighthouse 20
Great Mosque of Djenne 13
Great Wall 7
Hagia Sophia 23
Himeji Castle 20
Hanging Gardens 22
Hubble 26
Kremlin 5
Leaning Tower of Pisa 21
Louvre 21
Machu Picchu 21
Neuschwanstein Castle 23
Notre Dame 25
Oracle 27
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 22
Pyramids 21
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 22
Stonehenge 21
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 22

As I go tall more often I love the Pyramids to speed up my workers.
The Great Library isn't as good as in vanilla. It could save about 20 turns giving astronomy, while now at best 12 turns unlocking ironworking or philosophy.
 
Why all the Colossus hate when people also talk about how you "just can't make money early game" in GK? It's situational but interesting now.
 
Alhambra 20
Big Ben 23
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 25
Colossus 15
Cristo Redentor 17
Eiffel Tower 24
Forbidden Palace 18 (-2)
Great Library 22
Great Lighthouse 20
Great Mosque of Djenne 13
Great Wall 7
Hagia Sophia 23
Himeji Castle 21 (+1)
Hanging Gardens 22
Hubble 26
Kremlin 5
Leaning Tower of Pisa 21
Louvre 21
Machu Picchu 21
Neuschwanstein Castle 23
Notre Dame 25
Oracle 27
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 22
Pyramids 21
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 22
Stonehenge 21
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 22

(Showing the 20's some love) I tend to play tall and defensive, so my votes should be obvious. It seems like you would need so much population for the FP to be worth the hammers, and it comes at a time where happiness is a much lesser concern. Himeji is just awesome for holding off a bully when caught unawares. Best wonder still on the board? No. But one that I think deserves some love.
 
Alhambra 20
Big Ben 23
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 25
Colossus 15
Cristo Redentor 17
Eiffel Tower 24
Forbidden Palace 18
Great Library 22
Great Lighthouse 20
Great Mosque of Djenne 13
Great Wall 7
Hagia Sophia 23
Himeji Castle 21
Hanging Gardens 22
Hubble 26
Kremlin 3
Leaning Tower of Pisa 21
Louvre 21
Machu Picchu 21
Neuschwanstein Castle 23
Notre Dame 25
Oracle 26
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 22
Pyramids 22
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 22
Stonehenge 21
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 22

Really like the Pyramids especially if I'm starting with Tradition. 3 Workers is pretty much fine for the entire game and it's about the same cost as 2 workers anyways. The +1 GE point is great too, also the AI never seem to prioritize it.
 
For the new posters:

After the release of Gods and Kings some Wonder and their usefulness have changed, so I want to introduce a new Elimination Thread. Each Wonder starts with 20 points.
How to vote:
Copy the list from the latest post and give the wonder you like +1 point - and mark green, the wonder you dislike most -2 and mark red . Please give reasons and please vote only once within 24 hours.

A wonder that hits 0 points or below is elimminated and please deleate it from the list you copy.

ALL CORRECTIONS SHOULD BE MADE IN BLUE FONT AND LABELED AS CORRECTIONS. IF YOU ARE CORRECTING AND UP/DOWN VOTING, THEN USE THE RED OR GREEN COLOR AND SAY YOU VOTED AND CORRECTED
 
Alhambra 20
Big Ben 23
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 25
Colossus 15
Cristo Redentor 17
Eiffel Tower 24
Forbidden Palace 18
Great Library 22
Great Lighthouse 20
Great Mosque of Djenne 13
Great Wall 7
Hagia Sophia 23
Himeji Castle 21
Hanging Gardens 22
Hubble 26
Kremlin 1 (-2)
Leaning Tower of Pisa 21
Louvre 22 (+1)
Machu Picchu 21
Neuschwanstein Castle 23
Notre Dame 25
Oracle 26
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 22
Pyramids 22
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 22
Stonehenge 21
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 22

Louvre is great for the two great artists, which equals one epic golden age. Combine this with Chichen Itza and Taj Mahal (which happens around the same time), and you have quite a powerful gold/culture/production boost to your empire at a time when your early Industrial age empire can really spring forward from the rest. Use it to easily build a variety of buildings in your city and buy troops instantly. This period is usually the time when I dominate after turtling for quite a long time.
 
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