Wonder Elimination Thread

PhilBowles,

Is there any logic to the graphical representation of the Great Wall?

It never seems to come close to wrapping around my contiguous borders (and I'm not even counting borders that expanded during construction or after it was built). It only seems to wrap around 2, maybe 3 or 4 cities at most.

Also, when you lose a city or territory, the wall will shrink to fit the new borders. I don't get how/why it will do that but not expand with the borders.

And does it only have affect in the tiles it actually wraps around or does it still work in all of your tiles?

It works on all your tiles, regardless of the graphic. I always assumed it wrapped either around the contiguous borders at the time it you start building it (not when it's completed, since it's when you start building it that the graphic of the wall under construction will appear), or the cultural radius of the city that built it. As I noted above, though, I don't actually build it (I built it once when playing China, just for thematic reasons), so I'm not sure. I know it doesn't grow - I hadn't realised it shrunk.
 
Alhambra 20
Big Ben 23
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 24
CN Tower 10
Colossus 17
Cristo Redentor 19
Eiffel Tower 24
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Library 23
Great Lighthouse 20
Great Mosque of Djenne 17
Great Wall 10
Hagia Sophia 21
Himeji Castle 20
Hanging Gardens 23
Hubble 25
Kremlin 13
Leaning Tower of Pisa 20
Louvre 21
Machu Picchu 20
Neuschwanstein Castle 23
Notre Dame 22
Oracle 25
Pentagon 4
Petra 25
Porcelain Tower 22
Pyramids 22
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 21
Stonehenge 21
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 22

PT is always a good wonder. You never get enough RAs for peaceful victories and this wonder is a must for these kind of games.

CR is very situationnal. Mostly done for cultural victories, i haven't yet used it for a significative difference in term of turns saved. Maybe 2-3 turns saved max and this is why it sucks a bit. It sould be a little earlier in the game i think. Going Piety instead of Rationalism and actions taken for cultural victories make the science output slower than usual and it's hard to get it soon enough ot really make a difference. Maybe i'm just not well rounded enough in my strategies for a good use yet. But for now this wonder doesn't inspire me at all.
 
We are voting on whatever we want. I dislike the building in the game (thus never build it) because I don't like it in real life. That is still my feelings of it in game.

Your idea of the colossus is flawed, because it's not "just a big guy". It was an icon and considered brilliant. There is nothing like it.

The first seven are non-negotiable since they were in the list that defined the concept of a "Wonder of the World", even though the Colossus stood for little more than 50 years before it collapsed. It's bizarre that almost half of them were missing from Civ V prior to the DLC, but equally bizarre that the same three were also absent from Civ I.

Colossus is like a National Treasury that only works in the ocean, and National Treasury is easily the second worst NW anyway (after National Epic)

+8 gpt in the early game is never bad, and National Treasury (like National Epic) works with one of the few buildings you will always want in every city. As good as Heroic Epic is, I only ever want Barracks in one or two cities so I never end up building it. I'll often not build Circus Maximus until the Industrial Era because I have few happiness problems (and hence Colosseums) before then, and I generally get Ironworks rather later than is ideal.

Also, while it becomes obsolete with Dynamite, it goes obsolete when you research it and you can extend it's usefulness if you focus on the upper branches of the tech tree (and functioning Great Wall + Artillery would be insanely OP on the defense).

You can, but its effect is too minor to be worth losing or delaying the opportunity to upgrade all your old, promoted cannon to rocket artillery. The one recent situation I faced in which it would have been useful (as I was a couple of gold too short to buy an archer that would have saved me), the enemy rush came before I would have had time to build it, and I effectively got punished for making bad decisions - sending my two Warriors to attack a barbarian encampment half the map away to please CSes, and buying an archer in my second, expendable city when I saw Songhai forces gathering, rather than in the capital so that I could fight off the eventual attack and, if necessary, resettle the second city.

The arguments for the GW all assume that your terrain is otherwise flat, and that reducing enemy movement to 1 a turn is therefore invariably valuable. But for most of the time when it's useful, the only units with more than 2 movement a turn are mounted units that are no good against cities, and all those 2 movement units move at the same rate in hills or forest, or when crossing rivers, that they would if you had the Great Wall. The GW is far more situational in its effect than you're recognising; combine that with also being situational in the advantage it provides (based on whether you have troops in the area, whether you can use the time to heal/buy units etc.), and you have a Wonder that has very limited - or at least unreliable - application. It doesn't even keep barbarians out these days.
 
Alhambra 20
Big Ben 23
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 24
CN Tower 10
Colossus 17
Cristo Redentor 19
Eiffel Tower 24
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Library 23
Great Lighthouse 21
Great Mosque of Djenne 17
Great Wall 10
Hagia Sophia 21
Himeji Castle 20
Hanging Gardens 23
Hubble 25
Kremlin 13
Leaning Tower of Pisa 20
Louvre 21
Machu Picchu 20
Neuschwanstein Castle 23
Notre Dame 22
Oracle 25
Pentagon 2
Petra 25
Porcelain Tower 22
Pyramids 22
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 21
Stonehenge 21
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 22

For something a little different. ^^ I love Navy based play, and I think the Great Lighthouse offers a lot for how early you can grab it.

Pentagon.. I think the score speaks for itself. :lol: Not only is it bad, it's terribleness is doubled considering how far down the tech tree it is.
 
So I see you can vote once a day...anyway to the OP, thanks...this is a good thread....

Some of the wonders haven't really been discussed much...neither good nor bad, I guess. I almost always try to build Machu Picchu....assuming I have a suitable mountain, and I almost always seem to be able to get it. Not a priority for the AI, it seems. Notre Dame was one of my "must-haves" in vanilla...it's still pretty good, though in G&K it seems a little less critical.... The Hanging Gardens is also one I always want, but I usually get "scooped" by the AI on that one....maybe it comes at a time when there are other priorities.... and I suppose no spare GE available...:)
 
+8 gpt in the early game is never bad, and National Treasury (like National Epic) works with one of the few buildings you will always want in every city. As good as Heroic Epic is, I only ever want Barracks in one or two cities so I never end up building it. I'll often not build Circus Maximus until the Industrial Era because I have few happiness problems (and hence Colosseums) before then, and I generally get Ironworks rather later than is ideal.


I forgot about Circus Maximus. The only three I ever build are National College, Iron Works, and the Heroic Epic. +8 gpt is fine, but I never have money problems by the time National Treasury comes up. Has anyone ever done a NW elimination threat?
 
So I see you can vote once a day...anyway to the OP, thanks...this is a good thread....

Some of the wonders haven't really been discussed much...neither good nor bad, I guess. I almost always try to build Machu Picchu....assuming I have a suitable mountain, and I almost always seem to be able to get it. Not a priority for the AI, it seems. Notre Dame was one of my "must-haves" in vanilla...it's still pretty good, though in G&K it seems a little less critical.... The Hanging Gardens is also one I always want, but I usually get "scooped" by the AI on that one....maybe it comes at a time when there are other priorities.... and I suppose no spare GE available...:)

Hold on, did anyone downvote Macchu Picchu? I notice in the above post it's on 20, but I voted +1 in today's vote.

I forgot about Circus Maximus. The only three I ever build are National College, Iron Works, and the Heroic Epic. +8 gpt is fine, but I never have money problems by the time National Treasury comes up. Has anyone ever done a NW elimination threat?

I also build Oxford University.

National Intelligence Agency is problematic because it requires a tier 2 building to produce it, and not that many of your cities are going to be susceptible to spies.

It's probably also significant that we both forgot the Hermitage.

It's odd that they didn't add faith-based National Wonders in G&K. Particularly since with only two tiers of faith-chain buildings, there aren't very many ways of gaining faith until you have a religion already.
 
It's probably also significant that we both forgot the Hermitage.

It's odd that they didn't add faith-based National Wonders in G&K. Particularly since with only two tiers of faith-chain buildings, there aren't very many ways of gaining faith until you have a religion already.

Good points. Hermitage is either awesome (cultural victory) or worthless (not cultural victory). I don't know why they made it so hard to get (Opera houses in all of your cities?)

Yeah, I really wish they had dome some sort of a national temple/cathedral. It would have been cool if such a thing was linked to having pagodas, cathedrals, mosques, or monestaries in all of your cities, although that would punish some religious choices.
 
...The arguments for the GW all assume that your terrain is otherwise flat, and that reducing enemy movement to 1 a turn is therefore invariably valuable. But for most of the time when it's useful, the only units with more than 2 movement a turn are mounted units that are no good against cities, and all those 2 movement units move at the same rate in hills or forest, or when crossing rivers, that they would if you had the Great Wall. The GW is far more situational in its effect than you're recognising; combine that with also being situational in the advantage it provides (based on whether you have troops in the area, whether you can use the time to heal/buy units etc.), and you have a Wonder that has very limited - or at least unreliable - application. It doesn't even keep barbarians out these days.

Good analysis...and I suppose you are right...its benefits are situational....I suppose the decision to build it is a bit intuitive....depending on your terrain and the kind of neighbours you have been blessed with... But I stand by my point that sometimes you want it to prevent someone else from getting it...though that again might be an intuitive decision....and it may come a bit too early to really know whether it is worth having.... You may just simply not have enough information about the terrain your main opponent has.....
 
Don't forget GW works on prophets and missionaries...particularly the latter, which can stop a lot of religion spam in your territory
 
I upvote Hubble again, it's only wonder that comes late but still useful.

Hubble has the advantage that the AI never prioritises it, even on Immortal, and if you're starting to lag in the space race it can make a difference, more by accelerating spaceship production than technologically. But I'm not sure I can say it's made a critical difference in my games. I have a sense that it's a Wonder that feels more useful than it actually is. Assessments here before G&K came out speculating on what it would do made the point that such a late Wonder with a science focus would struggle to be relevant to a science victory, and I think that's pretty much spot on.
 
Hubble has the advantage that the AI never prioritises it, even on Immortal, and if you're starting to lag in the space race it can make a difference, more by accelerating spaceship production than technologically. But I'm not sure I can say it's made a critical difference in my games. I have a sense that it's a Wonder that feels more useful than it actually is. Assessments here before G&K came out speculating on what it would do made the point that such a late Wonder with a science focus would struggle to be relevant to a science victory, and I think that's pretty much spot on.

......
And it's still a beautiful peice of technology, sexy even.;)
 
Hold on, did anyone downvote Macchu Picchu? I notice in the above post it's on 20, but I voted +1 in today's vote.

The voter after you obviously copied the list from the poster before you, so I correct the numbers.

Alhambra 20
Big Ben 23
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 24
CN Tower 10
Colossus 17
Cristo Redentor 19
Eiffel Tower 24
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Library 23
Great Lighthouse 21
Great Mosque of Djenne 17
Great Wall 8
Hagia Sophia 21
Himeji Castle 20
Hanging Gardens 23
Hubble 25
Kremlin 13
Leaning Tower of Pisa 20
Louvre 21
Machu Picchu 21
Neuschwanstein Castle 23
Notre Dame 22
Oracle 25
Pentagon 2
Petra 25
Porcelain Tower 22
Pyramids 22
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 21
Stonehenge 21
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 22
 
Alhambra 20
Big Ben 23
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 24
CN Tower 10
Colossus 17
Cristo Redentor 19
Eiffel Tower 24
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Library 23
Great Lighthouse 21
Great Mosque of Djenne 17
Great Wall 8
Hagia Sophia 21
Himeji Castle 20
Hanging Gardens 23
Hubble 25
Kremlin 13
Leaning Tower of Pisa 20
Louvre 21
Machu Picchu 21
Neuschwanstein Castle 23
Notre Dame 22
Oracle 25
Pentagon 0
Petra 26
Porcelain Tower 22
Pyramids 22
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 21
Stonehenge 21
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 22

I'll put the Pentagon out of its misery, and vote for the Petra because it's so much damn fun.
 
Although the points screwed up in the middle, the votes are all valid. Post 054 voted positive for it but no one found out lol. Here are the 11 votes and their reasons:

022 Cheaper upgrades? I'm usually rolling in gold at that point and it isn't exactly massive savings either.
024 Pentagon comes way too late for it's bonus, by that time I usually don't have much to upgrade, or enemies to conquer if that is what I'm going for.
042 It comes way too late on the tech tree and ends up being a waste of hammers.
059 I dont ever find the need to build the pentagon.
079 Upgrade costs are nothing, comparing to the huge GPT in late game
082 The savings are at best trivial when this wonder rolls around. Further, most of the upgrading is already done and paid for anyway.
091 The Pentagon is just junk. Completely pointless.
109
117 The Pentagon simply comes too late. It's a money saving wonder at a time when you usually have more than enough money anyway and it requires a tech that s very low priority for all victory conditions except maybe conquest.
124 Not only is it bad, it's terribleness is doubled considering how far down the tech tree it is.
135

It is just a copy of Honor/Professional Army policy, and bonus is less than the policy. Maybe it should grant free promotions, XPs, or reduce military maintenance.
 
Alhambra 20
Big Ben 23
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 24
CN Tower 8 (-2)
Colossus 17
Cristo Redentor 19
Eiffel Tower 24
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Library 23
Great Lighthouse 21
Great Mosque of Djenne 17
Great Wall 8
Hagia Sophia 22 (+1)
Himeji Castle 20
Hanging Gardens 23
Hubble 25
Kremlin 13
Leaning Tower of Pisa 20
Louvre 21
Machu Picchu 21
Neuschwanstein Castle 23
Notre Dame 22
Oracle 25
Petra 26
Porcelain Tower 22
Pyramids 22
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 21
Stonehenge 21
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 22


CN Tower is way too late for it's bonus, and in the wrong part of the tech tree. The only reason to focus the top in the late tech tree is if you go for diplomatic or culture and you for some reason have the science for it. Both are victory conditions which the CN tower does absolutely nothing for. It's bonuses would be better suited for domination victory imo.

Hagia Sophia, comes just around the time you could get your first prophet anyway, so if timed well an extremely fast enhanced religion for you. Or just to found a religion ;)
 
Alhambra 20
Big Ben 23
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 24
CN Tower 8
Colossus 17
Cristo Redentor 19
Eiffel Tower 24
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Library 23
Great Lighthouse 21
Great Mosque of Djenne 17
Great Wall 8
Hagia Sophia 23 (+1)
Himeji Castle 20
Hanging Gardens 21(-2)
Hubble 25
Kremlin 13
Leaning Tower of Pisa 20
Louvre 21
Machu Picchu 21
Neuschwanstein Castle 23
Notre Dame 22
Oracle 25
Petra 26
Porcelain Tower 22
Pyramids 22
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 21
Stonehenge 21
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 22

Hagia Sophia is great to quickly enhance a religion so you can save faith to spend on religious buildings and missionaries.

Hanging Gardens is a wonder that I think I've only built once since I personally find its ability a bit dull and just helps grow your city.
 
Hanging Gardens is a wonder that I think I've only built once since I personally find its ability a bit dull and just helps grow your city.

I didn't think that anyone would downvote hanging gardens! If growth doesn't entice you, you can easily change the bonus to hammers by moving citizens around. Or you can use specialists and get synergies from the free garden, which is double awesome if you're not in a place where you can naturally build gardens.
 
I didn't think that anyone would downvote hanging gardens!

You think? Tomorrow this wonder will get a downgrade from my vote. +6 food is nothing compared of any other boosts available right now. These hammers can serve a lot better. Excepted for OCC games.
 
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