Fluphen Azine
What is Fluphen Azine?
Very nice and also done over and over with this approach, I thought we were trying to show and learn how to rush with full liberty and early archers w/ logistic promos into comp rush.
Deity England continents game (early war)
- Thread starter paralistalon
- Start date
Very nice and also done over and over with this approach, I thought we were trying to show and learn how to rush with full liberty and early archers w/ logistic promos into comp rush.
Well...this map cries about a Trad start. So much wheat and 2 nice coastal cities. I went for Sun of God of course.
I have wait for Longbowmen before attacking Netherlands. I'm allied with Poland and i have now a great exposition to Warsaw. Meanwhile, i went for artillery(stole Navigation several turns ago) that i got around turn 160. Now i have 12 artillery, 8 Gatling and 3 Cavalry units jumping on the other continent with over 130 gpt produced(loaned 2500 gold to Poland to get more units).
In my game the AI seems to tech faster than Cromagnus's game. Riflemen units are already floating in Sweeden since the turn 150. Also, every AI seems pretty equal. Still, i'm leading in techs by 3% and i'm 1st in food and production.
Cromagnus
Deity
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2012
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- 2,272
Cromagnus
Deity
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2012
- Messages
- 2,272
Tech rate has a lot to do with whether the world is at war. Both continents were at war early in my game. Which is actually a bad thing. My aforementioned strategy is all about taking advantage of the AI tech lead. But the nice thing is, obviously, if the AI techs slow, you don't have as much catching up to do. Not foolproof, but it's a good plan. Basically, they do all the research and wonder-building while you build units, and then you capture their cities.
paralistalon
Chieftain
- Joined
- Sep 18, 2013
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- 88
I took a brief break from England to try out other dom civs like the ottomans and Assyrians, but I gave England another go this morning. I think the difficulty comes from machinery's awkward place on the tech tree. It's the opposite path from science...libraries, NC, and universities. It's difficult to balance the two paths because if you just beeline longbows, your science will be garbage. But you also need to hit longbows before turn 100 I'd say to get maximum benefit from them, and by turn 120, you start having trouble against knights and longswords/muskets. Also, by that time, unless you've been harassing the target civ, they just have such a massive army by turn 100 that by the time you fight them off you and push them back to their cap, they all upgrade and stall you. There's just such a small window where you're actually dominating with longbows, lol.
I haven't played England in a highly-level game on BNW yet, but had a lot of domination victories in G&K with this general strategy. One trick I don't think I saw mentioned is to include horse units in you main attacking army with your longbows. The horses will help you spot, but can typically retreat once your longbow shots are off each turn. Normally horses suck against cities, but in most cases you can speed in the horse unit to make the capture once the LBs have knocked it down to nothing. I prefer Horses early in the game for this task for several reasons. They don't require iron, which you'll also later need for your Ships of the Line. Their promotions also make for better units later in the game, I think. In one of these England games, I rarely build warriors/swords/longwords, but I will sometimes built spears. Once muskets become available, I'll typically start building those. I assume all this holds up for BNW, but haven't tried it yet.
Similar early synergy with Ships of Line and Privateers, especially on fractal or archipelago maps.
Similar early synergy with Ships of Line and Privateers, especially on fractal or archipelago maps.
Cromagnus
Deity
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- Sep 11, 2012
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- 2,272
For Englands Continents Domination I do build horsemen, but usually not until later. Early on, I don't have the hammers or the tech, because I'm doing a Construction->Philosophy->Machinery beeline and trapping->horseback riding is more of an investment than bronzeworking. Bronzeworking also gets you valuable resources to sell.
So, I usually stick with my starting warrior + 1 spearman until machinery, then as I finish off my continent, maybe build a horseman or two while I'm teching civil service to defend against barbarians.
In the long run, spearmen upgraded to lancers defend the homeland, and the horsemen upgrade to knights and then swim over with range+logistics gatlings to finish inland capitals.
The key to this approach is IMHO logistics. Unlike fast pangaea domination, you're in it for the long haul. On Deity, Logistics longbowmen are relevant until t150ish. logistics gatlings are relevant until t210ish.
That initial army of archers that you upgraded to composite bows on t55 should all be getting logistics by the time you get Machinery. Aim for t110 machinery *at the latest*. For pangaea, I'd probably aim for t90 machinery and bulb the liberty finisher GS, but for continents, I need long-term science, so I plant an academy instead. You must juggle your conquest with getting science up. 2-city NC should be done no later than t85. Your first army is done by t55, (when you get construction) so you should have ample time to build libraries and tech philosophy by t75.
This isn't easy. It requires excellent timing and prioritization, but it is reliable. Once your continent is cleared, it gets a lot easier. The AI is terrible at naval combat.
I must admit I still haven't *quite* cracked this strategy, and I actually still don't have a deity/domination victory under my belt.
The closest I have are multiple later rushs, where I have been winning just before the AI builds the space ship (late, I know) but starting with artillery or even great war bombers, you can't really start quick.
Then some 5-6 turns before I can take the last capital, somewhere, the space ship emerges..
All the early CB rush games I have done (and I've done many) end up stalling at some point.
My biggest issue is how to catch up in tech while warring constantly..
*Do you still use trade routes for science when playing like this? It seems I can't produce enough beakers to get to Machinery early enough without those caravan beakers. And those are unreliable since you don't get to choose your neighbours and their city locations. If the AIs did send you multiple caravans at the very beginning, that would help immensenly. But often they don't.
So I'm wondering if your beaker production is all down to the population of your captured cities? (Since you can't depend on trade routes always working in your favor)
Composites at T55, NC done at 80-85 and I can't see how I could get to machinery before T100 without trade routes or +10 captured city population, which would of course, be a happiness issue too, at the time.
Also it's highly irregular what your first opponents have/do in the early game. If the first capital has 35 defense before T100, that's gonna be tough, at least for me. You'd need catapults honestly, but they take too much time to build, and are quite easily killed.
I had a good run the other day, where I was able to clear the first opposing civ by T80, but the next, Greece, had Pikes and Knights at T90 (could nicely insta-kill my composites) and then Crossbows also before T100, while I couldn't get beakers or gold anywhere in order to go Crossbows myself.
So I guess this time my big questions are how do you reliably get your early beakers and how do you deal with an early runaway civ who techs the military side of tech tree and all unit types have +1 tech level on you, 3x the numbers on you...
Also, about spies. When you first get your spiy/speis. Why is it that on some games your stealing speed against any of the AIs is immediately +20 Turns? And on some games you can find two or three civs from whom you can steal in less than 10 turns per tech to begin with? On some games I can't find any AI I could steal from in less than 25 turns, and that's just too much irregularity for my taste..
The closest I have are multiple later rushs, where I have been winning just before the AI builds the space ship (late, I know) but starting with artillery or even great war bombers, you can't really start quick.
Then some 5-6 turns before I can take the last capital, somewhere, the space ship emerges..
All the early CB rush games I have done (and I've done many) end up stalling at some point.
My biggest issue is how to catch up in tech while warring constantly..
*Do you still use trade routes for science when playing like this? It seems I can't produce enough beakers to get to Machinery early enough without those caravan beakers. And those are unreliable since you don't get to choose your neighbours and their city locations. If the AIs did send you multiple caravans at the very beginning, that would help immensenly. But often they don't.
So I'm wondering if your beaker production is all down to the population of your captured cities? (Since you can't depend on trade routes always working in your favor)
Composites at T55, NC done at 80-85 and I can't see how I could get to machinery before T100 without trade routes or +10 captured city population, which would of course, be a happiness issue too, at the time.
Also it's highly irregular what your first opponents have/do in the early game. If the first capital has 35 defense before T100, that's gonna be tough, at least for me. You'd need catapults honestly, but they take too much time to build, and are quite easily killed.
I had a good run the other day, where I was able to clear the first opposing civ by T80, but the next, Greece, had Pikes and Knights at T90 (could nicely insta-kill my composites) and then Crossbows also before T100, while I couldn't get beakers or gold anywhere in order to go Crossbows myself.
So I guess this time my big questions are how do you reliably get your early beakers and how do you deal with an early runaway civ who techs the military side of tech tree and all unit types have +1 tech level on you, 3x the numbers on you...
Also, about spies. When you first get your spiy/speis. Why is it that on some games your stealing speed against any of the AIs is immediately +20 Turns? And on some games you can find two or three civs from whom you can steal in less than 10 turns per tech to begin with? On some games I can't find any AI I could steal from in less than 25 turns, and that's just too much irregularity for my taste..
Cromagnus
Deity
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- Sep 11, 2012
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- 2,272
Re: caravans. I always play liberty and forward settle my free settler, so that either my expo or capital is next to an enemy, and the other is next to a chosen "friend". This way I can quickly attack an enemy at Construction and get trade routes to a friend. I can't emphasize enough how much this helps. Choose wisely who you choose as the friend. Pacal will send trade routes. Germany will send troops. Of course, he'd do that if he were halfway across the globe.
Re: spies. Theft rate is a measure of 2 factors. (oversimplified)
1) beakers/turn in the city you chose
2) presence of spies/constabulary/etc.
I usually look at the scoreboard and pick the AI with the highest technology score, lowest num-cities score, and highest capital population. Also, look for Great Library, hanging gardens, etc. in the diplomacy window. You want a BIG capital with a high tech rate. Attila might be #1 in tech but it's divided among 20 cities.
Re: Machinery by t100.
1) I don't capture until roughly t80-t90. 5%/city really hurts.
2) I rush NC. I chop it out and aim for t65 if possible.
3) I ally cultural CS to complete Liberty by t75 if possible. Bulbing a GS to finish Machinery is the bomb. For Continents, I plant that GS. With NC this makes a HUGE difference. *IF* you bulb, wait 8 turns after planting NC to bulb, at least. I usually wait until the bulb would finish Machinery to do it. I've hit Machinery on t90 this way. For Continents, this is overkill IMHO, but the sooner you can plant that academy the better. Cultural CS allies ftw!
Re: High defense capitals. Your XBs are most effective right after they upgrade. I try to time my captures based on city strength and unit strength. Right after I get Machinery, that's when you take the big city. Regarding the Great Wall, well, I usually wait until I have range, unless it's in a city with narrow cultural boundaries. GW sucks... This is a luck factor. But on Continents, 50% chance is that it's on the other continent, and GW doesn't affect Frigates.
Worker-stealing and harrassment is also important, as is the Pyramids, and I also utilize decoys to soften AI defenses. Cities with a garrison are harder to take. Leave a worker in range of your units, and they'll send a unit out to capture it. Nuke that unit, recapture the worker, and repeat until they're out of units.
Can anyone comment on whether Cromagnus's strategy is still valid, taking into account some of the changes that have been made to the game since he wrote his posts? It occurs to me that the AIs are more likely to go Liberty now, and they often seem to build the Pyramids (though building them is only one component of the strategy described in his post). I would guess this is still a pretty good strategy, though it seems you need to be an aggressive player to make it work!
Early warmongering with Liberty is still very popular, and it happens that England came up on the DCL not too long ago.
I am not a strong Deity player, but I still go full Liberty about one-in-four games (about half the time for warmongering) and can still get Pyramids most of the time. That feels about a reliable as before the most recent patch. (OTOH, Stonehenge seems to be impossible now.)
I am not a strong Deity player, but I still go full Liberty about one-in-four games (about half the time for warmongering) and can still get Pyramids most of the time. That feels about a reliable as before the most recent patch. (OTOH, Stonehenge seems to be impossible now.)
stormtrooper412
Peacemongering Turtlesaur
My (very good) experience with that map in particular made me think about the timing of the war as England. I don't really see the point of doing a CB rush since it may not always work as well as intended and since it's continents, you're not really in a rush to get the ball rolling in order to stack promotions and whatnot.
The reason for all that is because Longbows are quite possibly the best unit in the game for medieval warfare. Ok, if you don't count Keshiks and Camels
the extra range is insane for that part of the game and they also pack quite a punch. On the DCL map I took out two civs in 10-ish turns while waiting for the DoF to end.
Then you start working on Navigation, possibly even bulb it. England are top tier domination civ, no doubt about it
The reason for all that is because Longbows are quite possibly the best unit in the game for medieval warfare. Ok, if you don't count Keshiks and Camels
the extra range is insane for that part of the game and they also pack quite a punch. On the DCL map I took out two civs in 10-ish turns while waiting for the DoF to end. Then you start working on Navigation, possibly even bulb it. England are top tier domination civ, no doubt about it
Thanks for the contributions. I will try to put the good advice to use, but there seems to be something about this game that I will never understand. I have a failure rate of 100%, and suspect that I will never improve on it. I keep hoping, but ...
Thanks again.
Thanks again.
