BNW Deity Tier List

CraigMak said:

At the very least they could get it to recognize obstacles and understand the difference between a defensive and defenseless city to attack. Avoiding bottlenecks and single file attacks shouldn't be that difficult.

The AI in SC2 is significantly better at avoiding bottlenecks and single file attacks than the AI in SC1 was. The SC2 AI even recognizes the need to make air units when it can't attack from the ground. Although it's obviously not as quick to realize these things as a human would be.

It has to throw some ground units at the problem first before it realizes that it should make air units. They may have applied some sort of trial and error approach.

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This looked like another game to me but seems like youre talking about a mod but i didnt know what was being talked about here then. So sorry.

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Question about Japan: what's wrong with the UA that people put it below "+X% combat strength" UAs, like China's and Ethiopia's?

My understanding is that Bushido is worth up to a multiplicative +75% combat strength (with a nearly linear scaling) when damaging due to how the combat strength calculation is done. Civ5 picks the combat strength ratio between the two units and do the following:

damage proportion = ((((ratio + 3) / 4) ^ 4) + 1) / 2

So, a 1.1 ratio (+10% combat strength) results in a 5.19% damage increase:

1.05 ratio => 2.55% damage increase
1.10 ratio => 5.19% damage increase
1.15 ratio => 7.93% damage increase
1.20 ratio => 10.78% damage increase
1.25 ratio => 13.72% damage increase
...
1.75 ratio => 49.43% damage increase

Bushido prevents you from losing up to 33% of your damage; a 1hp unit that would deal 2/3 of its damage deals 3/3 instead, making Bushido worth up to a 50% damage increase, or a +75% combat strength bonus.

But you don't need to be that wounded to get a good benefit from Bushido. A 80hp unit gets a 7% damage increase, worth a +14% combat bonus. A 70hp unit gets a 11% damage increase, or a +22.7% combat bonus. At safe health values, it's already worth an increase equal or higher of other civs, not requiring risky gameplay to profit from it compared to other UAs.

Also, the bonus from other civs stacks additively, rather than multiplicatively, with other combat modifiers (terrain, flanking, promotions, great general/admiral, social policies, wonders, fortification, fort/citadel and, if you really want, religion). So, China's UA on a unit that has a terrain modifier, the general nearby and a +10% flanking bonus increases that unit's combat strength from 150% to 165%, worth a 10% multiplicative combat strength bonus.

That means a UA that offers a straight +X% combat bonus lose importance as the game progresses, as more modifiers come into play and dillute the UA's effect, notable already in the Medieval Era. Bushido applies after all modifiers, making it act as a multiplicative bonus instead and, therefore, not subject to the diminishing returns from additional modifiers.

Maybe I'm quantifying Bushido wrong, or the defensive aspect of more straight combat strength is more important than the offensive one, but I'm always with the impression that everyone believe they need to play stupidly to make the UA work. It wasn't my experience so far. As long as you don't neglect your combat modifiers, a safe gameplay already stands strong compared to any additive combat bonus other UAs could offer.

Doesn't it affect only Strength and not Ranged strength which is the main reason why people don't like it ?

I think the main problem with it is that you don't get a good UU to use it with. If you compare the advantages that Denmark get, then they match well with their UU, and it comes at a time when it's useable, on Deity. Samurai come too late.

It doesn't involve Strength at all, it acts on the damage penalty from being wounded, which is independent of the combat strength system. Cities are the only type of "unit" meant to be unaffected by it. Ranged units should benefit from the UA, without exception.

The UU case doesn't make much sense. The berserker, for example, comes at the same time as the Samurai and obsoletes much earlier. The samurai is not later than the Chu-ko-nu either, though in a different path. Would agree for the Zero, however.

The comments are usually that Bushido is a 33% combat offensive bonus at 1hp and conclude that you'd have to kamikaze units to make it comparable to China/Ethiopia UA. My calculation and experience is that it's a 75% bonus at 1hp, more if combat modifiers are in play because it's not additive, and that you get an equivalent offense gain with lightly wounded units. I mostly wanted to know who was quantifying wrong here.

Legen said:

The UU case doesn't make much sense. The berserker, for example, comes at the same time as the Samurai and obsoletes much earlier. The samurai is not later than the Chu-ko-nu either, though in a different path. Would agree for the Zero, however.

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That's wrong, Berserkers come 1 tech before Longswordmans, at metal casting. Having an edge on deity is the most important factor for war based VC, and earlier tech is one way to do it.

Oh yeah, I forgot about the Metal Casting part. My bad.

Can somebody please explain to me why the Mayan's are so good? They are on the top tier, but I don't know why they are up there with those other civilizations. It's not that I think they are bad, I just honestly don't know why they are so good.

The UB is pretty cool, even if going for a classical 4 city setup, it's almost like an early academy. The faith will almost guarantee a religion for you (again for 4 city tradition you get 8 FPT), and if you are in trouble of losing the race to a religion you can always chose a prophet as a "free" GP (the GP aren't actually free they increase the associated counters). The UA let's you choose a non faith pantheon even o higher difficulties becase you can choose a GPr as your second or third choice to fund, or enhance. For example you can get a wide liberty/piety strategy with rushing the UB in all cites, and Messenger of the Gods as a pantheon. That is 4 extra science for each city, so it hage a huge potential to snowball.

You do have some restrictions because you are obligated to beeline theology to get the most of the UA, but you can get a GS at turn 86 or sooner if you are lucky so that is pretty cool (only Babylon can get a faster GS). The archer replacement is also important, because you can skip archery while beelining for theology.

On a continents map an early Admiral will enable you to meet the world, and really having the ability to periodically choose a GP can make them very flexible.

Mayan are good, but still my experience was that they are weaker than the other 3 on the top tier, and probably don't belong there.

IMO, the Pyramid is the best UB in the game. Twice the faith of a shrine and 2 science is incredible in the early game. The UU synergizes nicely with beelining Theology and the UA is powerful and flexible. The Maya fully deserve to be in the top tier, imo.

Well they are Top Tier, it's just that they are probably the 4th out of the civs in there. It's a little trickier to play them at their full potential, and they are somewhat situational, a start with trapping or masonry luxuries will set you back a bit (of course calendar luxuries is the best start, it's right on the path to Theology).

claudiupb said:

The UB is pretty cool, even if going for a classical 4 city setup, it's almost like an early academy. The faith will almost guarantee a religion for you (again for 4 city tradition you get 8 FPT), and if you are in trouble of losing the race to a religion you can always chose a prophet as a "free" GP (the GP aren't actually free they increase the associated counters). The UA let's you choose a non faith pantheon even o higher difficulties becase you can choose a GPr as your second or third choice to fund, or enhance. For example you can get a wide liberty/piety strategy with rushing the UB in all cites, and Messenger of the Gods as a pantheon. That is 4 extra science for each city, so it hage a huge potential to snowball.

You do have some restrictions because you are obligated to beeline theology to get the most of the UA, but you can get a GS at turn 86 or sooner if you are lucky so that is pretty cool (only Babylon can get a faster GS). The archer replacement is also important, because you can skip archery while beelining for theology.

On a continents map an early Admiral will enable you to meet the world, and really having the ability to periodically choose a GP can make them very flexible.

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OK, I gotcha! That makes a lot of sense. Those are some great tips! Thanks for the detailed reply.

Hi guys in my opinion Austria should be lower on the list. But I guess I am just playing them wrong. Please advice!

First of all I usually play with the following set up:

1. Normal speed (epic speed just lets you exploit war against AI too much.)
2. Continents
3. Huge maps (12 players/24 city states)
4. Everything else standard

I do this because AI is so bad at war and I don't want to exploit that too much on higher difficulties. That's why I have more players, larger distances and a few isolated players.

Still it is possible but hard to win domination victory, but science victory and depending on your civ diplomatic victory are most likely. Tourism victory can be hard or easy depending how easy it is to reach the culture leaders.

Now to Austria:

UB
I understand the UB is great just late available but still great.

UU
The unique unit I like as well, but it is a non ranged cavalry, which are not the most needed units in the game. And tanks are kind of out of the way in the tech tree. Especially for Austria where you often go for tourism victory. So why build a lot of them if you don't plan to upgrade them soon anyway.

UA
Now my real problem. Please help!
While cheaply buying a city state with all those units and workers is immensely useful in the short run.
It sucks in the long run because I am usually only getting a mediocre or worse city location. And usually a lot of city states have the same luxury so I might also run into a happiness problem for a not so useful city.
It is also often hard to defend annexed city states in far off locations.
If I instead settle most of my cities myself (And Austria prefers to go tall anyway), I get a much more productive/scientific empire.)
And while all those free units are nice I often get the wrong mix (no cannons/artillery).
Additionally it is kind oh hard to win diplomatically if you annex the guys that give you your votes

I would love to hear from you!

Don't know how a continents setting is supposed to help the AI rather than yourself, that just means there is less people that can attack you.

The thing is, once you reach a certain level of play it's not about winning on Deity anymore, it's about how quickly you can win and how good your builds actually are. If you are so bored, take the worst civ and reroll till you got the worst possible start. Even then if you are good you will win 99% of the time.

For the gold you spend you will get incredible value from annexing a CS, that's why it's really strong.

NiSaSh said:

Don't know how a continents setting is supposed to help the AI rather than yourself, that just means there is less people that can attack you.

The thing is, once you reach a certain level of play it's not about winning on Deity anymore, it's about how quickly you can win and how good your builds actually are. If you are so bored, take the worst civ and reroll till you got the worst possible start. Even then if you are good you will win 99% of the time.

For the gold you spend you will get incredible value from annexing a CS, that's why it's really strong.

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The continent setting has nothing to do with the AI. I just like to play it, because (like mentioned in the beginning of this old thread) it is kind of "fair" to most civilizations. While a lot of other map types may strongly favor or disadvantage certain civs.

I am not bored at all. And for sure not a good deity player. I just don't want to abuse the tactical stupidity of the AI too much.

My question was why is Austria supposed to be top tier? This thread is about comparing civs not making the game a challenge. With the continents set up I just wanted to give some context to what my usual game experiences are.

And yes I mentioned that the benefits for annexing are huge. But how often should you do it (especially if you go tall)? And as I mentioned there are many down sides of annexing.

So how is Austria top tier? How du you use there UA properly?

Not sure how much exactly it is, but for ~1500 gold, you get a full intact city where you don't even need to buy a courthouse + a bunch of units. Hell a university alone costs half of that amount.

NiSaSh said:

Not sure how much exactly it is, but for ~1500 gold, you get a full intact city where you don't even need to buy a courthouse + a bunch of units. Hell a university alone costs half of that amount.

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Yes that bonus is huge. The question is is anyone using this more often than once or twice per game? Shouldn't you do it at all in some situations? In most games people settle their 4 core cities and conquer the rest. And even if you plan to play peaceful, sometimes you just need to take out/weaken an aggressive neighbor to survive or because you need his wonders to win.
Would people consider annexing a city state even though it will not bring in new luxuries or strategic resources?
Locations of city states are often very mediocre (Often no mountain and river and quite often in Tundra. At least they are quite often at the sea but usually with very low production.). Austria seems to end up with worse duties than other Civs this way. And 2 or 3 bad cities can really drag down your overall economy. If I conquer a city with a quality like that I would 99% of the time burn it down, when playing any other Civ. Anyone else with similar experience?

Earthangel81 said:

First of all I usually play with the following set up:

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unusual setup so expect unusual results

UU
The unique unit I like as well, but it is a non ranged cavalry, which are not the most needed units in the game. And tanks are kind of out of the way in the tech tree. Especially for Austria where you often go for tourism victory. So why build a lot of them if you don't plan to upgrade them soon anyway.

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Well for most players, cavalry units are far more useful than infantry. On offense and defense. Possibly your setup and peaceful games don't make much use of them.

UA
Now my real problem. Please help!
While cheaply buying a city state with all those units and workers is immensely useful in the short run.
It sucks in the long run because I am usually only getting a mediocre or worse city location. And usually a lot of city states have the same luxury so I might also run into a happiness problem for a not so useful city.

Click to expand...

Buying a CS can be a great opportunity, but you should consider which CS to buy and not simply buy any allied CS. I'm not great at playing Austria but i would buy.

• A nearby Hostile CS that has good land. I won't stay allied with them and a fifth city will always help you if it comes fully developped (CS get growth/production bonus like any AI on Deity so it will be a better city than what you could build). You probably do this Medieval/Renaissance.
• Any nearby CS that has really good land. Especially if they have a NW. As soon as classical if i can get the alliance.
• A CS allied with a player i plan to attack, especially on another continent. I Coup the city, buy it and then i have a base of operation to position my army plus a good amount of cannon fodder (obviously Venice is better at that). Mostly Industrial and Later.
• A CS Allied with the WC leader if i really want to be a pain. Coup, Buy, sell the city to some AI if it's crappy, use gold to buy another one

It's actually pretty versatile but of course you should not buy a CS simply "because you can".