The Deity Challenge Line-up #15 - Poland

consentient said:
Glad you enjoyed them! The next few will have some interesting differences as an experiment. If the community don't like them, I'll go back to how they have been.
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I've actually started playing nothing but Fractal maps on my own, inspired by recent DCL maps. I love the unpredictability and variety of the maps. Pangea and Continents had gotten boring.

(Yes, I still owe you a map from a certain civ. I've got one that looks playable, but am still playing around to improve on the choice.)
 
Spoiler :
I settled on the gold hill as I expect most players to have done. Early scouting revealed Alex and Genghis as neighbors. A lot of units is called for, infrastructure will have to wait. After fighting of Alex' first attack circa turn 50 I managed to get a dof with him and Genghis, and also Korea and Germany. Siam has marched a large army towards me though. I plan to attack either Genghis or Alex with crossbows when our DoF runs out. Taking out Alex will remove a threat to my back-line, taking out Genghis will give me better land. Any recommendations?

Build order scout monument, scout, scout, granary, archer, settler, settler, archer, spearman, archer caravan library, archer, national college settler, machu picchu.

Tech order: mining, archery, bronze working(hut), pottery, animal husbandry, calendar, writing philosophy, guilds, construction, civil service.

Social policies: 5 liberty, 0 patronage, 1 commerce. I got my 7th policy 5 turns too early and put it in patronage for lack of a better option.

Religion: sun god, pagodas, initiation rites.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1rtpo10hwsdz0yj/DCL 15_93.jpg?dl=0
 
chumchu said:
Spoiler :
I plan to attack either **** or **** with crossbows when our DoF runs out. Taking out **** will remove a threat to my back-line, taking out **** will give me better land. Any recommendations?
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Spoiler :


Spoiler :
Id say it seems like you have a good grasp on what you are doing. I think going Full Liberty makes alot of sense on this map. However, it looks like you only went 3 city NC/Liberty. With this much room I think you could of got 6 cities in but in your game it sounds like Alex forward settled on you which would make it harder to get them out. The way I understand it is that Liberty is meant to go with more cities and lower population. I still play a 5 pop strategy from years ago. Sometimes I will stagnate all of my expos to 1 pop to spread my religion very fast. Also you have to love getting Machu but if you did expand more with Liberty the usual tactic is to use your Liberty Finisher to rush the NC, but since you hard built it with less cities it makes sense to take Machu instead.

Ofcourse you would of had to settle Uluru asap. Get the Church up and if you stayed at 1 pop in all your expos it would spread very fast. With this you would want pagodas though. I used to play this with +2 spt for all cities connected as well. Also with this plan you are going to try to dominate as much of the map as possible as fast as possible. It sounds like you are getting ready to warmonger as well. The sooner always the better.

Since you were going Liberty... in my games with Poland I would of went with a Trad/Liberty mix (Tommynt has a very good Trad/Lib Strategy Guide). Going into Patronage on this map with Greece/Siam could be a problem. Im not saying you couldn't make it work but it will be hard to hold the CS's if you don't take them both out! You also have a Science monster in the game so he needs to be dealt with. The Mongols love to war so you know, put them to war with all your neighbors no matter the cost.

My last bit of advice, which really means nothing and should be taken with a grain of salt, is that Im not sure I like how you bounced around with your SP choices in Patronage and Commerce. Im not saying it will not work, Im just saying that I like to fill the tree that I am going to use and with Poland getting alot of free SPs you can do it pretty fast.

So in conclusion, I still think if you are planning on War... get on with it asap and put the Civ you are going to war with against another AI or two. Wait a few turns for his army to march away from expos and the capital and go attack with less resistance which is always easier! I agree it is probably better to just wipe out Alex first and move North after.


Edit: Those two snuck in there. I took care of the last two but for some reason didnt' see the first two.... geesh, too much Civ! That is true too since Im at turn 71 on the Amsterdam Challenge now getting ready to post up first story/pic on #14.
 
F.A. you need to fix the spoiler tags in your quote ;)
 
Well, I managed to lose a Science Victory on turn *290* to you can probably guess who. Rough start with the neighbors but managed to be on track for a 320ish Science Victory of my own (definitely messed a lot of things up) -- and managed to avoid EVER getting involved in a war the whole game (though was building up a force to go after the guy who won near the end). Even got game long DoFs with the two neighbors.

1200+ beakers at the end on five cities but you know who still managed to be 7 techs of me.

If people are interested in a write up with spoilers I can throw one together, I suppose, just seems it may be wasted on a loss.
 
LordBalkoth said:
If people are interested in a write up with spoilers I can throw one together, I suppose, just seems it may be wasted on a loss.
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I think the write up is more for the person writing it but I enjoy reading all the write ups win or lose. Heck I have been losing for the past month and writing about it lol! It does help to see what you did to give some feedback so we all learn not to fall into the same traps.
 
LordBalkoth said:
Well, I managed to lose a Science Victory on turn *290* to you can probably guess who. Rough start with the neighbors but managed to be on track for a 320ish Science Victory of my own (definitely messed a lot of things up) -- and managed to avoid EVER getting involved in a war the whole game (though was building up a force to go after the guy who won near the end). Even got game long DoFs with the two neighbors.

1200+ beakers at the end on five cities but you know who still managed to be 7 techs of me.

If people are interested in a write up with spoilers I can throw one together, I suppose, just seems it may be wasted on a loss.
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Spoiler :

I would enjoy reading your write-up. Missing by 20 turns to "you-know-who" could probably have been avoided…….would love to see where you zigged instead of zagged.


 
chumchu said:
Spoiler :
Taking out Alex will remove a threat to my back-line, taking out Genghis will give me better land. Any recommendations?


Religion: sun god, pagodas, initiation rites.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9lbq3ywxfu69skd/DCL 15_93.jpg?dl=0
Click to expand...

Spoiler :

Suggestions? I assume Genhis has taken out at least one CS? Then if you are warring, take out Alex for XP upgrades (and to rid the world of that obnoxious a$$), then fix the world's opinion of you by liberating a CS that Genghis has taken out. Given that Korea is likely your good buddy by now, and probably building Wonders, bribing Genghis to DoW there (or Siam) shouldn't be expensive before you backdoor him. So….Alex first, Genghis second. Occupy Siam and Korea with fighting Genghis or vice versa.

Regarding Religion: Sun God was an interesting choice. I didn't click on your link to see where your early cities were, but my experience with the map would have put that a bit lower down the list of Pantheon choices. IMHO, with Poland's SP advantage making it easy to complete trees, faith is my #1 priority (completing trees opening up faith purchases of GP's). Getting a culture Pantheon only enhances Poland's UA, so that would be my second choice. Again, just an opinion.

 
Spoiler :
WELL... a lot happened...
first off Sistine, Globe, Pisa EVERYTHING got taken... including PT by that Korea (who apparently just had rat opener and no policies in it until the end of the game so I didn't see it... he filled the whole aesthetics tree out, but later on he didn't put anything in Rationalism at all so I'm guessing his AI had him open Rat just to deny me the wonder... what an assh0le)
I bribed for him to backstab or be backstabbed to cancel most of his RAs btw... which cost me a lot of money... which meant fighting for CS control was out of the question. I was pretty scared he'd get out of control. In the end though I beat him to Hubble and won pretty comfortably.


Btw I have NEVER seen so much coal... that turned out to be my biggest export as opposed to luxes... Mongolia got eaten up eventually. Greece is an as usual but leaving Mongolia with a snow city meant that I was never the last in military and bribes against Mongolia kept the peace.


When Louvre got taken (despite Exploration being by far the least used tree for the AI) I knew it was time to give up on CV. It's not common for SVs to have the whole aesthetics tree filled, but I had it... seems I overinvested in culture (as usual)
Plastics t205-ish


I took Order and the whole world except from Persia (Order) and Korea (Freedom) took Autocracy, then Siam got world autocracy passed and I was at single digit happiness for the rest of the game. Le Sigh.

Landmarks kept my diplomacy afloat and Siam was my best friend by far thanks to the WC mechanism (I also got A LOT of spies leveled to lvl3 because everyone wants my tech; however that didn't matter at all since Siam and Greece have around 250+ influence more than me in all the CSs)



Pretty abysmal numbers btw... I'm really used to taking Freedom and growing things huge and then have immense production with SoL. With Order, spaceship parts take FOREVER.
 
kb27787 said:
Spoiler :
including PT by that Korea (who apparently just had rat opener and no policies in it until the end of the game so I didn't see it...
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Spoiler :

This answered a question I have had for awhile. I've lost policy dependent Wonders often and couldn't figure out why I didn't know the AI had access to said building. Can I conclude that the SP doesn't show up on the Diplo screen until they take more than the opener?

BTW, nice win.


 
Yes, YET ANOTHER poor piece of programming is that if the AI only opens a tree, it doesn't yet show that they have opened it. Apparently the opener is not counted as a policy. Stupid.
 
Welcome Back KB!! You have to be rusty or you rushed the game because of the Holidays. This is the first time I have ever seen you not get a CV.... amazing that you would miss a CV with Poland but I can understand it on this map with these Civs! KB going SV... what is the world comming to!?
 
Shark Diver said:
Spoiler :

I would enjoy reading your write-up. Missing by 20 turns to "you-know-who" could probably have been avoided…….would love to see where you zigged instead of zagged.
Click to expand...

Here we go then!

Spoiler :
I immediately went and settled on the gold mine to the left -- got River + Mountain + immediate lux (once Mining was researched). Scouted around and found both Ghengis and Alex (plus Sejong, but he was less of an immediate threat). Settled second city next to Natural Wonder, third to east on Marble, fourth to west on coast.

Saw a lot of Mongol units near my second city and was worried, so spent several turns building up enough of a force to defend it. Turns out Ghengis was only after Sidon. In fact, on turn 72...



I had Declarations of Friendship with Alex and Ghengis (plus Korea and I think Siam).

Turn 82 general status...



As you can see I was having some severe happiness issues and had to stop growth outside of my capital for a bit.

I managed to bribe Alex to get into it with Ghengis in order to keep him off my own back potentially (I felt safe while DoF was active but potentially worried when it expired -- I was directly in Alex's path).

Turn 100 report:



National College 13 turns out. Behind schedule but given how worried I was initially about Alex/Ghengis I felt it wasn't too bad. Of course, Alex decided to settle between my cities and cut them off. That may not have actually been too terrible overall, though -- it also gave him a clear route north without him feeling he had to go through my lands. Definitely messed up plans for expansion and resulted in western city not having enough territory, though.

Turn 151...



Continued to have Alex/Ghengis occupied with wars, which Siam then joined in against Ghengis as well.

Was basically forced into Order by Sejong lest I suffer major happiness issues -- I actually was first to pick I believe, but I saw where the wind was blowing. Siam went Freedom and Alex went Autocracy but managed to be friends Alex the whole game and at least Friendly with Siam.

Turn 200...



Turn 230...



About this time I realized Korea was like 10 techs ahead of everyone else (was signing research agreements with everyone). Managed to get Alex to go to war against him in the hopes of slowing him down, but didn't seem to help much and Sejong conquered some of Alex's city states.

I started building up a battleship force with a carrier with fighters (even went and settled a new city on oil on an island to the southeast for seven more oil) that wound up getting a few missile cruisers (rushed straight to Hubble and then Robots after Research Labs) but it was too late.

Turn 286...



Yeah...



I thought losing a cultural victory on turn 316 to the AI was nuts, now I've lost a 290 science victory.

Anyway, feel free to ask any questions you have about the game and I'll answer as best I can, may not remember every detail at this point. Do have a few saves I can load to check stuff out, though.

I definitely had a bad start and didn't leverage my science well enough mid-game either -- used to cargo food shipping my capital which I couldn't do here which hurt.
 
consentient said:
Yes, YET ANOTHER poor piece of programming is that if the AI only opens a tree, it doesn't yet show that they have opened it. Apparently the opener is not counted as a policy. Stupid.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I thought that was well known. It is stupid, though.
 
Bad luck Balkoth! But thanks for a tremendous write-up, and despite the loss, you came closer to victory than I did. The civ that won in your game is one you pretty much have to take out if you don't want them to win, IMHO. They are easily one of the top 3 civs, by any measure. But they had good dirt and in most games I guess would get Great Wall, too, right? A tough cookie to crack.

Thanks again for the superb write-up. :)
 
Spoiler :
Since my plan is not domination I will let Alex live. As it is now he has no wonders and bad land which does not make it enticing to conquer him. He is also my friend and sends mesends me a lot of trade so I think he is more useful that way. That being said I will probably need to distract him a bit in the future. Getting Genghis into war and saving for x-bows and pikes is the plan now.

At the same time I badly need to grow my cities. I want to get to at least 8 and preferably 10 pop when universities become availiable. Therefore I will tech sailing, engineering and machinery after civil service and only then go to education. To support this happiness-wise I will have to skip building a 6th city for now

Re: NC I did a 4 city NC finished around turn 80. Liberty bonus person was used for Petra in my uluru city.

Re: religion. I too would have preferred a faith pantheon but the only decent one was "one with nature" and I was not certain that I could keep the uluru city in my religion. I have around 10 wheat/citrus/banana so it gives me distinct early advantage. The other possibility was sacred path but I think I will get enough policies with Poland any way, so the main bonus of sacred path will then be slightly faster policies and border expansion.

Re: policies. I wanted to go full commerce (with full liberty, full rationalism and 6 in freedom) for the large happiness boost and the cheaper purchases for late game. But I got my 7th policy before I entered medieval and I had to put it somewhere. Patronage seemed slightly more useful than piety or tradition, while aestethics and honor opener were no use at all.
 
Well, I played about a 100 turns of this and the Netherlands game, and here's how that went:

Spoiler :
Since I'm playing as the policy master, I skipped the scout and went straight for a monument. I sent my warrior north and found Ulura, which is amazing! So I rushed out a settler at 2 population and settled on the hill next to it. I worked that to get the desert folklore pantheon, because it would be a good Petra spot.

From that point on I just made a rush for currency, and I did actually manage to get Petra, officially giving me an amazing city! I can't say I like my capital quite as much, but it's good, it has...citrus, and stuff. I dunno...

I settled my third city quite a bit later, and I actually settled it on the other side of Vilinus (which I believe is the city state I took my worker from), in a patch of plains chuck full of salt. As is, I'm sending a worker there now.

Now, I'm doing alright with Greece (who are being super expansive) and the mongols. The mongols invited me to fight Siam, and since Siam is awful to face, I went to war with them. I wasn't very active until Siam settled a city near the coast (poorly placed, as always). It was so close to my two main cities though that it didn't take long to burn it to the ground with chariots and composites, allowing me to settle my fourth city on the coast, were I wanted it.

I believe my tech order was Pottery->Rush Currency->Get Bronzeworking and...I forgot after that. My social policies were Tradition opener->Oligarchy->Legalism->(the food boost in the capital)->(gold and happiness)->Aristocracy, which helped me get Petra out sooner. After that I adopted Aesthetics for...no reason, and then adopted the policy which cuts down on build times.

Overall, this is a game that I personally think is going great, and while I got an early religion I can't remember which beliefs I chose...sorry. This is just a quite jot of what I remember, I was honestly in a bit of rush because I was away for a while and have a bunch of games to catch up on.
 
Turn 93-161
Spoiler :

Bribed genghis into war with Siam, he took ac tiy. DoF expires. Bribed him into war with Alexander. Bribed Genghis last friend (korea) into war with him. Denounced him together with rest of my friends(siam, alexander, Germany) and then invaded turn 112. The war went well. Took all Genghis cities with no losses and no diplomatic repercussions. I Used landsknechts to get double gold and I liberated Sidon for the diploboost. The middle city (Beshbalik) had no good land so razed it.

Alexanders is pathetic, he has 1 city state, 4 cities and is more than an era behind the rest. He also sends me a lot trade routes so not attacking him worked out really well. I barely lost Macchu Picchu. I kept watch on the other players, none of them was building it. But of course persia who I had not discovered at the time snatched it from me. =( My first spy died while trying to steal education from Korea which delayed my catch-up to Korea by a huge amount =( Siam founded world congress turn 138 and I proposed scholars in residence to keep up with Korea, who are 12 tech ahead of me still. I will propose world fair at the next opportunity after I have built SoL so that I do not delay my infrastructure by building it and am guaranteed a win. Korea still does not have an ideology since they have no factories, but they should be at radio soon. They have had electricity for a while. By the way, I have never had so much as I have on this map, there is like 40 coal in my vicinity.

I am tempted to conquer Korea since they have 2 really good cities, but it is probably to expensive to upgrade all my troops and too late to get much science out of them. At the present speed I think I will win SV arond turn 230, the bottleneck being too few great scientists/too little science. My religion is puny and I can not afford more than 2 scientist I believe. Korea took Pisa and Porcelain tower really early. I will need an engineer for SoL. This means I will have to generate many, many scientists in my 7 cities and can probably only spare 1 scientist for bulbing towards plastics. No academies of course. Perhaps I will try for slightly larger cities to work more jungle tiles and trading posts to compensate

https://www.dropbox.com/s/m6c9e8x897erv7e/2014-12-26_00001.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/m8l0i4tntpl7tnw/2014-12-26_00002.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2yhv74m75ozr8c0/2014-12-26_00003.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/76gu9qwkramfqf8/2014-12-26_00004.jpg?dl=0
 
Acken said:
Time to start that one, wont have time to do a commented game of it so I'll just record it silently.
Click to expand...

Please, please GO for DomV if you can :)
 
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