Quick Science Victory

Im not sure I agree but perhaps I just dont understand.

For example, If I can get to ST and schools t145 with signing 3 RA:s where I took a jump and shaved the 4.5 turns around t140 aswell as with that early built uni but in that case I shave the 4.5 turns around t100-110, all techs between t110 and t140 would come 4.5 turns earlier with uni built early and give a snowball effect in your empire, wouldnt it? In both cases I would arrive to ST same time but infra structure would be better with early built uni. You could build something else instead of uni in capital those 10 turns to further more improve this.

I cant see how 1 turn at t140 is of same worth as 1 turn at t110. The reason for holding on to your GS is to get the advantage of having 8 turns of a Golden age and recently built labs to boost them yes? If you would have a GA and recently built unis 8 turns ago I would say you would benefit from popping a GS right then too if you would shave of as many turns as you would t195ish.

You might get additional advantage in other things (production, wonders) during that time, but in terms of pure science, you're not getting any benefit in between universities and public schools. Since that's the case, you're better off going with what gets you more overall beakers, as long as it doesn't delay public schools, your next boost in science.
 
No because your tech rate is not a function of where you are in the tech web (between two techs not giving you direct science).

Here is an illustration:
Let's say for the first 10turns you make 1 science per turn, the next 10 2science per turn etc.
There are 2 techs. One cost 10, the next cost 30.
Without any boost it would therefore take you 10 turns to get the first one and then 14 turns to get the next one (10 turns at 2spt and 4 turns at 3spt).
If I give you the chance to accelerate 8 turns of a tech of your choosing which one should you chose ? You should choose the second one.

If you choose the first one: It will take you 2 turns to finish it but then you are still at 1spt for 8 turns so the second one will take 8*1+2*10+1*3 => 19 turns. It took you a total of 21 turns.
If you choose the second one: It will take 10 turns to finish the first one and then 6 turns for the sconde one (14-8=6). It took you a total of 16 turns.


To be fair this is only talking about beakers. The main advantage about rushing is that you basically buy hammers. So rushing get some quick hammers AND something done with production (since the city will produce something else in the same timeframe).
In other words, the value of rushing a university vs getting 3 RA is not simply Value(Beakers of rush) vs Value(Beakers of RA) but Value(Beakers of rush) + Value(120 hammers) vs Value(beakers of RA).

Thank you for the illustration Acken. I can see how RA is worth it but would like to know better how to calculate the brake even Point. So many variables :confused:

Can you keep up with your base science (eg 1 bpt for first 10 turns and 3 bpt for next 10 in your example) with good growth?

Isn't Astronomy´s science boost worth getting to faster in between unis and schools?
 
Question: is the turn 110 education benchmark specific to Babylon?

Here's what I can do right now with Babylon on a decent map: settle 3 total cities, build national college, settle 4th city, get education by turn 110. The capital is usually good, the second two cities are at least OK, and the 4th city usually sucks. (I'm still not sure how people are getting to Scientific Theory by turn 160, but that's another story.)

Then I tried this with Korea, and the earliest I can get education even with a great start following the same pattern (3 cities, national college, 4th city, education) is turn 120. I'm wondering if the extra beakers from specialists will compensate for those lost 10 turns in the long run, or if I should somehow shave 10 turns off my education time.
 
You should be able to get Education as Babylon by turn 95 or so. 110 is a target for other civs.
 
Question: is the turn 110 education benchmark specific to Babylon?

Here's what I can do right now with Babylon on a decent map: settle 3 total cities, build national college, settle 4th city, get education by turn 110. The capital is usually good, the second two cities are at least OK, and the 4th city usually sucks. (I'm still not sure how people are getting to Scientific Theory by turn 160, but that's another story.)

Then I tried this with Korea, and the earliest I can get education even with a great start following the same pattern (3 cities, national college, 4th city, education) is turn 120. I'm wondering if the extra beakers from specialists will compensate for those lost 10 turns in the long run, or if I should somehow shave 10 turns off my education time.

If you still have any doubts, play the Russia DCL. A lower tier player like myself accomplished a 94 Education and 144 Scientific Theory. Just follow Acken's Tradition opener video to the letter
 
Thank you for the illustration Acken. I can see how RA is worth it but would like to know better how to calculate the brake even Point. So many variables :confused:

Can you keep up with your base science (eg 1 bpt for first 10 turns and 3 bpt for next 10 in your example) with good growth?

Isn't Astronomy´s science boost worth getting to faster in between unis and schools?

It's rare that a boost of 196 science like in the previous example is essential to getting observatories.

I don't understand your first question since the numbers are made up.
 
Can you link to the Russia DCL and tradition opener video that you're referring to?
 
It's rare that a boost of 196 science like in the previous example is essential to getting observatories.

I don't understand your first question since the numbers are made up.

I tested it and you are right. You dont reach Astronomy earlier by purchasing the University instead of building it 6 turns in capital. I tested with purchasing in all 4 cities compared to hardbuilding them in all cities (6t,14t,11t,12t) and you reach Astronomy only 1 turn earlier with the purchase.

Thank you for your patience Acken :blush:. Sometimes you just have to play it through to get it :wallbash:
 
I finally got my first sub-300 tech victory (Korea, Emperor, turn 279). I wanted to write one more post to supplement the other advice in this thread for anyone else who is having trouble improving their tech times.

First, about the benchmarks: forget them. I'm sure if you want to win at turn 200 then every move you make must be perfectly optimized, but if you just want a solid tech win then it's much more important to focus on the fundamentals - happiness, money, defense - than stressing out over whether you're going to hit Scientific Theory by turn 160. In my game I got NC at 81 with 3 cities, Education at 115 with 4 cities, Scientific Theory at 174, and Plastics around 215 (I lost the save).

Second, religion is insanely helpful - it's probably the the single factor that made the biggest difference for me between turn 325 tech victories and a turn 279 tech victory. Include a shrine early in your build order - you can go scout-scout-shrine if you get a cultural ruin - and select the pantheon which will give you the most faith in the short run. You want to get tithe at all costs, and either Pagodas if your pantheon gives you lots of faith or religious center otherwise. The reason is there is a certain point in the mid-game - starting a little before Scientific Theory for me - when you start to face severe happiness and financial pressure. The financial pressure comes from the fact that the AI eventually stops buying your horses, a nearby civ is massing at your borders and you need to bribe them into war with someone else, and you want to save up for the next science building. The happiness pressure comes from the fact that 3 of your 4 cities are on rivers and civil service is really starting to kick in. It just happens that tithe and pagodas / religious center provides you with just enough money and happiness to get you through this low point, and the rest of the game is smooth sailing (with tithe paying quite handsomely in the endgame).

Third, don't freak out about culture and faith. You only need enough faith to hit 1000 before you research satellites, and this takes less than 100 turns if you build 4 shrines and temples. Everything else you get from your pantheon or city states is icing on the cake. As for culture, it's OK if you aren't burning through social policies in the mid-game, though you probably want secularism ASAP (especially if you're Korea). The reason is that you can catch up in the mid-late game if you plan ahead. Build and staff the writer's guild as early as you can (probably in your capital) and save all of the great writers you generate. Make world's fair your second proposal, and make sure you win it (this should be easy, at least on emperor). Before you win it use some combination of money and spies to make sure you're allies with as many cultural city-states as possible, and start a golden age with a great artist saved from your artist's guild as soon as world's fair reward kicks in. Wait 8 turns and pop all of your great writers. In my game I got over 6000 culture from the pops; combined with the free social policy and extra culture per turn from the world's fair/golden age, I think this was good for 7 social policies within 10 turns (and I managed to time it so that one of them was the rationalism finisher, used on satellites).

Fourth, you don't have to spend much money on city states. All of the good players say they don't spend any money on them, and I never understood how they got by. I probably still don't entirely understand, but I think part of the answer is the effective use of spies. Every time you get a new spy, immediately put him in your capital and let him kill enemy spies; he should hit level 3 quite quickly. Then steal the AI's city state alliances with coups, rigging an election first if the coup probability is under 75%. This process is free, it only takes a few turns, and the diplomatic hit isn't as big as if you steal the alliance with money. So by and large you should save your money for buying science buildings and upgrading your military, though it's probably OK to throw a little money at a mercantile or cultural city-state in the early mid-game if you're struggling.

That's all for now. On to immortal...
 
Oh, one more thing: ignore it when people tell you to buy all your science buildings. You can reasonably expect to buy one (sometimes 2) of each science building on emperor, but that's it. The people who tell you to buy all of your public schools with cash are playing on diety and trading gold per turn for a lump sum; you can do a little bit of this on emperor, but not nearly as much because the AI just doesn't have as much money.
 
Not sure I can agree with all of your points, but it's good to see you improved massively
 
@pwsiegel. Good write up and all very relevant for a sub300 on emperor. The only thing that I don't agree with is religious center. For sub300 you are probably better off with either a growth or hammers belief, growth = hammers and hammers help with everything except faith (science, gold, happiness).

For sub270 on emperor, some of the stuff you describe above, not so great.

For immortal, you are fine(ish) for a just sub300 with what you described, although pagodas will be much harder to get, be careful to not depend so much on the religion, as you will eventually want to jump to deity and getting a religion, even a pantheon is quite difficult there. So I would encourage you to continue to try to hit a 110ish Edu with a normal civ (Babylon take 10 turns off) with money to rush buy 2-3 unis. Good luck with immortal and congratulations on your progress, it is very impressive.
 
@Bleidraner, stormtrooper412: Thank you both four your advice; stormtrooper412 has been particularly helpful in my quest to improve throughout this thread. I have found after only a handful of games that immortal is a very different experience from emperor, and I hope you both will continue to feel free to correct my remarks which do not apply to immortal/deity games.
 
Oh, one more thing: ignore it when people tell you to buy all your science buildings. You can reasonably expect to buy one (sometimes 2) of each science building on emperor, but that's it. The people who tell you to buy all of your public schools with cash are playing on diety and trading gold per turn for a lump sum; you can do a little bit of this on emperor, but not nearly as much because the AI just doesn't have as much money.

Not true. Its pretty essential to rush buy at least all research labs (assuming under 8 cities). Of course it assumes you have both Big Ben and Mercantilism.

I usually rush buy at least 2 universities, 3-4 public schools and all research labs (usually 6).
 
Second, religion is insanely helpful - it's probably the the single factor that made the biggest difference for me between turn 325 tech victories and a turn 279 tech victory. Include a shrine early in your build order - you can go scout-scout-shrine if you get a cultural ruin - and select the pantheon which will give you the most faith in the short run.
If none of the faith-generating pantheons are useful on a given map, I'd say it's still very worthwhile to include a shrine early in your build order. God-king is surprisingly powerful in the early game, and I think it more than pays back the opportunity cost of an early shrine when you have no intention of trying to found a religion. (I almost always research pottery first, and build a shrine when pottery finishes researching.)


All of the good players say they don't spend any money on them, and I never understood how they got by. I probably still don't entirely understand, but I think part of the answer is the effective use of spies. Every time you get a new spy, immediately put him in your capital and let him kill enemy spies; he should hit level 3 quite quickly. Then steal the AI's city state alliances with coups, rigging an election first if the coup probability is under 75%. This process is free, it only takes a few turns, and the diplomatic hit isn't as big as if you steal the alliance with money.
Where are you getting this from? Based on my experience, it seems like getting city states via coups pisses off the AI just as much as buying them. But I haven't carefully tested it, so my impression might be wrong.
 
Not true. Its pretty essential to rush buy at least all research labs (assuming under 8 cities). Of course it assumes you have both Big Ben and Mercantilism.
While it is certainly faster to buy research labs - I question big Ben and mercantalism in a science victory. What social policies are you sacrificing? For example Scholasticism can be more directly helpful in science victory - creating more bulbs than a few rush buys that save 10 turns in build time. Remember, saving 10 turns off production of a building does not equate to 10 turns off your victory time.... Or, 3 policies deep into rationalism is way more important than opening commerce.

I'm beginning to realize that late game science rate is crucial.
City States ARE IMPORTANT. Faith and culture are 2 ways to accomplish this: buying GS with faith and moving through policies.
 
Also - this thread was amazing. And the OP made huge improvements over is course. Would have loved a neutral save that we could all play to compare results and strategies. ..
 
While it is certainly faster to buy research labs - I question big Ben and mercantalism in a science victory. What social policies are you sacrificing? For example Scholasticism can be more directly helpful in science victory - creating more bulbs than a few rush buys that save 10 turns in build time.

Well, science from scholasticism unlike from mercantilism doesn't count for GSs bulbs.

Acken some time ago presented calculation that with five cities with all gold buildings you will get more science over the course of game than with scholasticism.

However I also like scholasticism because I like early science :)
 
My general rule of thumb is that Scholasticism is a very good option if you can get at least 2 policies before Renaissance and multiple ally city states.
Otherwise I'd go Commerce because due to Rationalism you are unlikely to use scholasticism for a long time if you don't already have 2 policies in Patronage.
 
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