DCL evolution and proposition

A3 - just started attempting the DCL, really enjoying it, playing through some of the old ones but would like to keep going with new ones too
B3 - I'm just starting to consistently win on Deity so right now they are fine, but maybe that will change as I hopefully improve?
C1 or C2 - either one is fine. Longer than that seems too slow though.
D2 - not a fan of mods generally but I'd be willing to try it.
E2 - don't really care much about this one either way
F4 - I usually mix in some conquest, especially for culture or diplo victories. Sometimes I do play peaceful science though.
G5 - I think domination is the most fun but it's all new enough to me that I still do all of them, depending on the civ I'm playing and the map.

Totally pointless and irrelevant wish but could we get Portugal next? I can't help feeling that there's something cool if the circle closes with Land of the Rising Sun - even better if the game had something unexpected.

Yay or nay?
A3: I want the Deity challenge series to continue very much.
But I am not volunteering to do the work, so I have no expectations. What about petitioning the GotM folks to go Deity-only?

How tough?
B3: I like the difficulty, on average, of the last 10 DCLs
I only know the last 10 DCLs. Harder would be fine with me. I usually die the first time through anyway!

How often?
C2: I want to see a new map every 14-20 days
Twice-a-month seems more sustainable to me than the very ambitious 10 day cycle.

Mods?
D1: I don't want to play with Mods at all.
I would rather we try the built in scenarios rather than mods. I don’t feel real strongly about this though.

Game Dynamic and VCs
E2: I don't mind if some maps are heavily biased towards certain VCs, or if there is a recommended/preferred VCs but don't want any VCs actually disabled.
Disabling VC nerfs the AIs. I am okay with really strongly encouraging only certain VC for participants.

Play Style - re: Conquest
F2: I'm Theo. I've been known to counter attack and take cities.
I would like to be more like Attila, and the DCLs have helped me with that.

Play Style - re: overall strategy
G4: I like SV most of all.
I have only been able to figure out Diplo and SV -- so SV is where I end up most of the time -- but “like” is not the right adjective!

A3 - Keep it going. I enjoy reading, even if I don't play often lately.
B3 - I like a variety of difficulties. [edit - but whine a lot when they are harder!]
C2 - 2x/month-ish
D2 - Mods are fun!
E2 - No VC's disabled, but suggesting a VC can be great fun. There is a lot of negativity towards turtling, but let's keep in mind that newer Deity players need a way to enter more smoothly, and without being made to feel like idiots. It takes time to learn how to optimize their game. They *are* trying Deity, for goodness sake.

One approach I really favor are mini-quests. I tried to incorporate some in the ICL. Like be first to clear your continent, reach a certain tech, build X of a unit, find a certain NW, etc. I loved the old Magellan's circumnavigation +1 sea movement bonus. Now you just see a fast blip at the top of the screen, but a screen cap of the mini map would prove the feat.

F3 - I love all approaches.
G1 - I mix it up, but prefer immersion over optimizing. (Get into character, sort of...)

A3: DCL maps take away the most frustrating part of civ 5 - map scripts and re-rolling for a decent game.

B2: Some more difficult maps mixed with occassional nice map. Its nice to mix in maps like Inca/Byzantium for speed running for every 2 lets say Maya+ standard map (AI(s) tried to kill you and/or other AI can runaway). I didnt really like maps where the AI/player starting conditions were adjusted (added settlers/workers/buildings/El dorado) since it seemed to reduce the number of strategies open to the player. On a side note the roleplayer in me dislikes non-globe map scripts since it breaks the immersion.

C2: 2 per month is enough for me. It takes me between 7-15 hours for a game and theres a big backlog for me to play through anyway.

D1: not interested in mods at the moment

E1: its always interesting to see how different people solved the map. Not everyone is interested in speedrunning a map for that specific VC.

F4: conquest is fun and generally find i get more out of the game this way. Although on some maps like netherlands it felt like DomV was practically forced

G1: no perference, although most of my games tend to slide into domv since you cant really trust the AI....

A3: I want the Deity challenge series to continue very much.

But I will play only some of them and probably after the fact. However, I really like playing on shared maps and getting feedback / discussions, and it motivates me to continue even if something does not go as planned. (discipline is not my forte, I'm afraid)

B3: I like the difficulty, on average, of the last 10 DCLs

I'm fine with any mix, really, as long as there are some easy ones left and as long as there will be some hard ones when I'm ready

C: I really don't care about schedule as I won't play them all anyway, and might binge play if work permits. Some day.

D2: I don't mind if some maps have mods. I can always choose not to play them if I don't like them, or they don't work.

I don't have windows, so dll mods are straight out. Otherwise, I'm fine with any variation as long as some people think it is interesting.


E2: I don't mind if some maps are heavily biased towards certain VCs, or if there is a recommended/preferred VCs but don't want any VCs actually disabled.

F6: I'm vanatteveldt, I check out what other people do and try not to lose too badly

G1: I don't have a preferred VC and like to mix it up



tl;dr: thanks to acken and others for hosting so far, and keep up the good work! Whatever you decide to do I'll be happy that you do it at all

OK well from just over 10 responses, it's clear that there is a strong majority feeling in favour of:

1. Slightly more difficult maps overall, but a mix
2. Return to fortnightly schedule
3. Some maps to have mods, but not all, and no DLL.
4. No VCs disabled, but maps heavily in favour of one VC are OK

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To this end, I propose a series that has two main hosts: Grendeldef and myself; with Budweiser as an alternate to put up maps when he has a great one, or if one of the others is unavailable. Grendeldef's maps will tend towards the trickier end of things, whereas mine will tend towards the easier end. I recommend a return to fortnightly map releases and having 1 in 4 maps are modded (to begin with). I also think we should go with a different name so there is no confusion. Any suggestions?

I second vanatteveldt's thanks to Acken, who really did a sterling job of keeping the DCL going, and going strong.

consentient said:

I also think we should go with a different name so there is no confusion.

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I actually think a different name would actually make it more confusing, but okay.

A few requests on my part to the people posting maps:

• No naval-oriented civs on maps without significant water.
• Ensure AI have easy access to any strategic resources they need for UU.
• Ensure that the player has some access to any strategic resources they need for early UU. Iron or horses does not have to be within three hexes of starting location. But within expo range or with neighbor (AI or CS).
• No Venice two games in a row!

I second vanatteveldt's thanks to Acken, who really did a sterling job of keeping the DCL going, and going strong.

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+1

I agree that AI civs should mostly be chosen, to avoid having naval civs landlocked or not able to do much. I did this for DCL #14 and probably some others.

As far as the strategics go, I like leaving it random. People complained about the Arabia map, but I liked the fact that if you wanted to go Domination, you had to find the horses first. Let's face it, it's usually not that hard to find them.

I won't pick Venice ever. Hat'em.

Regarding mods I still have the intention of making my own thread (probably a single one unless it becomes bloated) where I propose maps to play in community with my DLL mod (sorry Macs ). Frequence will probably be low (one a month, if there is any interest to begin with of course). It will start with V3 release. Still undecided about the difficulty setting, deity is simply nuts.

I don't really have much interest playing base Civ BNW. The challenge is non existant and the game is getting boring with half of the options not feeling interesting.

I don't think you really need a new name. You can shorten it maybe.

consentient said:

To this end, I propose a series that has two main hosts: Grendeldef and myself; with Budweiser as an alternate to put up maps when he has a great one, or if one of the others is unavailable.

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Oh, I wasn't planning to host anything other than in case that the series would die out but I don't mind rolling interestingly crappy maps and sharing them if that's what is required.

consentient said:

I also think we should go with a different name so there is no confusion. Any suggestions?

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Maybe make it DCL Season 2?

Personally I would just stick with the name.

Unless I'm mistaken it had multiple hosts so far, and in any case the people who care know. The host of each map is clearly the OP of the thread, and the history clearly gives credit where it's due. No need to complicate things.

(edit: I assumed you wanted to change the name to prevent it seeming like you stole the idea - if you want to rename because you have some different ideas, that makes sense)

beetle said:

Ensure that the player has some access to any strategic resources they need for early UU. Iron or horses does not have to be within three hexes of starting location. But within expo range or with neighbor (AI or CS).

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consentient said:

As far as the strategics go, I like leaving it random. People complained about the Arabia map, but I liked the fact that if you wanted to go Domination, you had to find the horses first. Let's face it, it's usually not that hard to find them.

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Calvary is not an early unit and that map provided some access. So that is more than okay with me.

OTOH, horsemen UU come too early to have options. And facing Odo if he does not have iron is disappointing. Similarly, facing Arabia without horses is also so much less fun.

The maps should be curated. If I want crappy RNG, I can roll my own maps.

Acken said:

Regarding mods I still have the intention of making my own thread (probably a single one unless it becomes bloated) where I propose maps to play in community with my DLL mod (sorry Macs ).

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Yeah, well I think everyone can see I've changed my mind half a dozen times about this game, but the fact is I DO like it, and not being able to take part in the ModAcken thread when it starts, means that I feel more motivated to take over the DCL again. It's not like my lifetime wish, but it really does seem everyone else wants the DCL to continue but no one stepped forward to volunteer.

I don't really have much interest playing base Civ BNW. The challenge is non existant and the game is getting boring with half of the options not feeling interesting.

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This is why I'll be adding mods and heavily altering maps.

I don't think you really need a new name. You can shorten it maybe.

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The maps will be really quite different from the DCL, so I think a new name will help people identify it.

Grendeldef said:

Oh, I wasn't planning to host anything other than in case that the series would die out but I don't mind rolling interestingly crappy maps and sharing them if that's what is required.

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OK sorry I misinterpreted your words. If you'd prefer, you can just be an alternate like Budweiser, although it would be nice if, from 4 maps, I made 2, and each of you made 1. That would be really great and helpful, and make for more variety.

claudiupb said:

Maybe make it DCL Season 2?

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I think a really different name will be better.

beetle said:

Calvary is not an early unit and that map provided some access. So that is more than okay with me.

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Cavalry? The example I gave was Camel Archers, and the reason I did so was to show my opinion about strategics. I'd prefer an Oda that has to forward settle in order to get the Iron. For me, it's more about a story in that regard. The AI know where the resources are anyway. If every city has strategics (like with Strategic Balance option) there is no fun, IMO.

OTOH, horsemen UU come too early to have options. And facing Odo if he does not have iron is disappointing. Similarly, facing Arabia without horses is also so much less fun.

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Oda is a horrid AI to start near anyway - maybe the worst. If he doesn't have iron, he is still capable of taking out many Deity players. However, Arabia is not going to get to Chivalry before he can be taken out with a CB rush.

The maps should be curated. If I want crappy RNG, I can roll my own maps.

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I did say I would be heavily altering the maps. So please rest assured. You will NEVER get crappy maps with me.

Where's the faith?

and I will, of course, take care of record keeping

Call it DCL2.

stormtrooper412 said:

and I will, of course, take care of record keeping

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That is a very generous offer! Thank you!

consentient said:

...but it really does seem everyone else wants the DCL to continue but no one stepped forward to volunteer.

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We have a scribe, that is one of the most important things for a series. What about just outlining the rules for starting a new thread and calling it DCL and we see if sufficiently interesting maps get posted with sufficient frequency?

I appreciate the leadership you and Acken and others have provided. The on-schedule posting was quite important to make it series too. And maybe I am underestimating the work involved?

Cavalry? The example I gave was Camel Archers, and the reason I did so was to show my opinion about strategics.

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Brain fart on my part, but I think knights come late enough to figure out where the horses are.

I'd prefer an Oda that has to forward settle in order to get the Iron.

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The AI forward settle for luxes all the time. Do they do they for strategics? But noticing that the Odo was nearby and that an iron plot was halfway between Odo and the player is exactly the interesting dynamic that one cannot count on for RNG -- but the diabolical map curator can do that!

If every city has strategics (like with Strategic Balance option) there is no fun, IMO.

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I agree completely.

Oda is a horrid AI to start near anyway - maybe the worst. If he doesn't have iron, he is still capable of taking out many Deity players.

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Sure, but why let him be handicapped?

However, Arabia is not going to get to Chivalry before he can be taken out with a CB rush.

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But just to make sure players are properly motivated to do so, make sure he has horses.

I did say I would be heavily altering the maps. So please rest assured. You will NEVER get crappy maps with me. Where's the faith?

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You I trust. I would like to better outline what I am looking for in maps that others submit.

Which is just rude. People are offing me gifts, and I am putting out all kinds parameters around those gifts!

In the many months I was host of DCL the first time round, I only had 1 submission that was useable, so I don't count on that being a very big problem this time around. I may not even solicit maps. It's better just to roll and tweak them myself, assisted hopefully by Grendeldef and Budweiser.

Stormtrooper's offer is indeed very generous, and I will confer with him about what kind of spreadsheet we will have.

Yes, I will try to make a contribution towards hosting the series. I might even look into editing maps.