The Deity Challenge Line-up #33 - Songhai

consentient said:
I don't want to be misunderstood, so I'm happy to explain, but I feel that there are some people who are determined to find bigotry whether it exists or not. Those people, I fear, will not be satisfied.

The fact is, I think that real-life Berber culture is great. I'm of a primitivist persuasion and like stripped-bare natural living.

The point was not that real-life Morocco has no culture, but that the in-game Morocco always seems to be a cultural powerhouse, which does not correspond to reality.

I think that when people joke about Gandhi and the nuke, it's the same thing. Humorous comparison of video game and real life universes, or making fun of Enrico Dandolo being blind. I think there is a place for humour on CFC. If the mods decide my joke is not welcome here I am sure they will tell me.

More disturbing for me is adcarrymaokai's implication that I am generally ignorant, and I wonder what prompted this kind of comment.

Shall we leave this and get back to the topic?
Click to expand...


I found it funny :D but anyway my game seems to have stalled at 128.

Spoiler :

I didnt block the chockepoint and the now the everybody especially the Huns is cramming me with cities. I dunno this just isn't working out. Im 1 Tradition, 5/6 Liberty and 2 Piety.
I just cannot keep up with the AI progress. I have 6 cities but their way underdeveloped and my military and economy and tech is now way behind. Now I'm facing wars on multiple fronts.... Honestly this whole Liberty strategy is a joke - what good is the Settler bonus when you have to build double the number of settlers compared to a Tradition player - you are really no better off (you spend as many turns build settlers) and you end up with a tonne of useless cities that prevent you from focusing on your capital which still sucks because it doesn't get those enormous growth bonuses :rolleyes:.
 
Question regarding the Citrus on the map are you best to chop it to plantation or leave it with Sacred Path and pickup the university jungle bonus?
Obviously the jungle yields more (3 food, 1 gold, 1 culture, 2 science) compared to (2 food, 1 hammer 2 gold) but you also lose the ability to trade the luxury to AI
 
I always trade the luxury to the AI for either GPT or another lux and +4 happiness. I think that, for any spare citrus, 7GPT/240G is very valuable early (ish) game. Unis come much later so you'll already have lost out on gold, and 2 science per turn per citrus isn't exactly a game changer. Let's say you get a decent turn 110 Education and improved your citrus by turn 50; you'll get either 420G (no DoF) or 480G (DoF) from the citrus in 60 turns. Well worth it imo.

In the rare instance that I have too many to trade away they clearly remain jungle tiles.

Instead of jungle culture the Sun God bonus can help if you have multiple tiles; it makes them workable at 3 food, 1 hammer, 2 gold. Or maybe plantation culture, though it's a weak pantheon due to poor plantation yields.
 
Redaxe said:
Spoiler :

Honestly this whole Liberty strategy is a joke - what good is the Settler bonus when you have to build double the number of settlers compared to a Tradition player - you are really no better off (you spend as many turns build settlers) and you end up with a tonne of useless cities that prevent you from focusing on your capital which still sucks because it doesn't get those enormous growth bonuses :rolleyes:.
Click to expand...

I've always found peaceful liberty very difficult. Like you I end up behind in growth. Players like Acken managed to do cool things with Liberty, but it's definitely much more of a challenge.

That said, it's not clear from your complaint whether you aim to do conquest. If you do, Liberty shines much better than Tradition, I would say. Then it doesn't matter so much that the cities are smaller, as long as they can produce, and you get bonuses towards that production.

And I'm a firm believer that you don't need to build more cities for Liberty Domination, just capture them. I think this map is pretty good for a CB rush on the neighbour to the North and then either sitting back and going for another VC, or tech-ing to later eras and beginning a sweep. Your northern neighbour is one who does NOT beeline for their land-based UU, unlike some others.
 
@Consentient: By the way nice win and a particularly impressive first screenshot; I'm not nearly half as far into conquering on the same turn. I assume you CB rushed, on what turn did you start to war?
 
I give up on liberty + piety domination for this map - almost pulled it off (was slowly chocked by the double DOW ~turn 220) - was tech leader (signed lots of RAs (some of which with PT) ) and going fast towards a modern armor map blitz clear :spear:.. But they cut my GPT (undefended cargo-ships) and happiness (killed of my CS allies) because I picked the social policies in the wrong order (happy/discount rule) .. Had fun with god is great (engineers, scientist, merchants, artist, writers on demand ) ..

Will go for the extremely hard to avoid if spamming cities early-mid war (liberty honor)
 
Liberty/Honor is the go-to domination strat. I'm kind of struggling to start playing this map, I don't much like the start and Songhai are one of my most hated civs in the game. Besides, didn't really see either of yous having much fun with it :/
 
Bimblecrumbs said:
@Consentient: By the way nice win and a particularly impressive first screenshot; I'm not nearly half as far into conquering on the same turn. I assume you CB rushed, on what turn did you start to war?
Click to expand...


Nope, not at all. I went for Sacred Sites and failed but was then in good shape to spam units. Since growth didn't matter, most cities could work production tiles and make Mandelcavs or XBs in 10 turns or less, plus with city connections and the broken Church Property, I was able to buy a few. As always, midgame conquest is the easiest way of getting top of the heap.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Well I had a huge number of cities all making FPT and GPT.
Spoiler :
Attila and Liz
didn't found and I built GT early so there was no need to build units to spread. This meant that after the Enhancer GP and all the Pagodas and Cathedrals, I could just plant my GPs for a ton of CPT on top of the religious buildings. Before it became obvious SS was not going to work I only had about 6 or 7 CBs, but my economy was in such good shape that I could do pretty much whatever I wanted. Of course, I was behind on science all game long. The caravans I sent to
Spoiler :
Gandhi
before I finished him off were pulling off 7 science or something crazy like that, but again, if you switch to Domination, science doesn't matter if your economy can replace units that die. The screenshot of attacking
Spoiler :
India
shows about a 1/3 of my total army. The ones that had just been up to kill
Spoiler :
Bismarck
couldn't be bothered to make the long march back West, plus I needed to make sure that
Spoiler :
Venice
wouldn't go back to a level of influence below Influential, as the tourism screen showed that the trend was falling. So backup plan was full Domination, which as I said in my write-up wouldn't have taken long. 10 turns would probably have done it.

TLDR: The best thing about wide Piety in this game is the mountain protection. Use it, that's my advice.
 
I tried 3 city Honor, got creamed by northern neighbor about T140.

I read everyone’s spoilers and I tried peaceful Liberty, but had too much unhappy, and didn’t really think there were that many great spots. Gave up around T65.

I am trying 4-city Tradition now, that is going much better, currently at T150. Paying back the northern neighbor for my first game...

It is another good map for founding, pretty much guaranteed with an early shrine and the Wine or settle a faith mountain early, working it as soon as the city hits pop 3 or 4. Consentient got Desert Folklore, but I don’t think you can count on that.
 
beetle said:
Consentient got Desert Folklore, but I don’t think you can count on that.
Click to expand...

Indeed, I think I must have gotten lucky. When I scouted the SW lands, I wondered why those dudes had chosen Pastures and Quarries!
 
T94

Spoiler :

I did a first attempt at this map a few days ago, with a liberty start and a domination victory in mind, but I got double DoW'ed about 10 turns before I was ready to defend well, so although all my cities survived, it set me back enough that winning any CV would be either very difficult or very boring.

I chose to give the map a second try today, but I was torn between opening Tradition or Honour. I ultimately decided to go Tradition, research archery first and try to invade England with some crossbows and then see where that leaves me. At T94 I've done just this, and am unsure on how I will continue. I'm not always a big fan of domination victories, as I often find it gets quite tedious after killing the first 3 civs or so, although that depends on the map and the civ etc. The unique unit of the Songhai is a pretty boring one, and I'm a bit late on tech right now so rushing Chivalry for it would be very questionable indeed.

The actual war with England was a bit hairy, as Elizabeth had chosen Honour and built a sizeable army. I joined Lizzy in an attack on Austria 5 turns or so before I attacked her, but they quickly made peace and I had to kill her whole army. This also led to me losing all my melee units due to a pretty big derp, so I had to rushbuy a horseman in my closest city to actually take London. It only delayed the capture by three or four turns, but was still quite annoying, although I only have myself to blame. :rolleyes:

For these reasons I think I'll turtle up for now and see what I want to do at a later time. All VCs are still open options, though, including late-game domination. I'm a bit behind on tech right now, so I'll go for education and try to decide after that.

There's room for another expo between me and Atilla, and it's a pretty sweet spot, but I think the five cities I have now will have to do. I'll place my army south of my capital to defend myself if the crazy nutbag attacks me, although I plan on spending some gold for that not to happen.

2015-06-21_00004.jpg
 
Seems like everyone gets the inevitable double DoW and quits. :lol:

I am not sure I'd want to do Domination on this jungle map with a weird peninsula. SV is boring, CV is hammer-heavy and difficult with wide (museums and hotels in all cities), and Diplo is quite questionable with Austria ans Venice on the map. If I replay, I will try going wide but build 2 armies and defenses (might as well try the fort improvement), and then maybe turtle into something. The annoying part about Deity is that the AI's move too fast through eras, and when you are going peaceful Liberty, it takes a bit of time to start picking up.
 
Well I got a double DoW from from 2 civs but I held out on the West as I had a choke point and the Northern neighbor didn't bother me.

The AI to the South moved an army toward me so I bribed them to take someome else.

My mistake was building too many early cities as Liberty so I'm going back to my first screenshot and try again; I'll delay Piety until I get Citizenship and not build more than 5 cities until I can get a NC.
 
I built a ton of cities because I didn't want the AI's to city-spam me. Perhaps, my last 2 cities were in crappy spots with just 1 luxury, but I also didn't want Attila to build up a base in my backyard and get access to even more luxuries.

I dropped a city near Old Faithful, and it's indeed very easily defendable among all that jungle, but Liz with her carpet attacked desert flatlands...
 
adcarrymaokai said:
I built a ton of cities because I didn't want the AI's to city-spam me. Perhaps, my last 2 cities were in crappy spots with just 1 luxury, but I also didn't want Attila to build up a base in my backyard and get access to even more luxuries.

I dropped a city near Old Faithful, and it's indeed very easily defendable among all that jungle, but Liz with her carpet attacked desert flatlands...
Click to expand...

Yep that's a great city site at old faithful.

Since were not using spoilers I'll add my $0.02. Since there is a faith mountain nearby I would forget about building an early shrine.
Build order could be scout, scout, archer, archer, warrior, settler (for faith mt). The advantage to an early military is you can farm barb camps (i got about 8 in my game) and defend yourself easily.
 
Ya, I founded a city near Mount Kalisah, which gave 10fpt with One with Nature pantheon, so I had a religion on t56 or something.
 
adcarrymaokai said:
Seems like everyone gets the inevitable double DoW and quits.
Click to expand...
Hey, I quit after one DoW.

Spoiler :
Liz was super aggressive, taking out Austria fairly early before declaring on Ghandi, who never fell. I suspect the heavy jungle north of Ghandi, plus the assistance of one or more CS, played a major role in that. Of course, what she wasn't busy conquering, she was settling.

I put my second city south, on a riverside hill SW of the faith mountain. My mistake was not settling my third city to the north, either the NW to block Liz's expansion, or the NE for a nice site. Instead, my third city was backfill between the first two, and several turns of handling the multiple barb camps in the area left me ill-equipped to settle the NE before Liz got there.

Losing that site more than anything pushed me to quit after the inevitable Atilla DoW. I never bothered to defend the gap, and I think that decision paid off; he never managed to bring more than three units into range of my southern city, and archers alone would have been enough to hold him until peace. Then again, he probably lost tons of units during his first DoW, an unsuccessful attempt at attacking Germany.


All in all, I liked the map. I was never a deity player, and clearly I need to brush up on some empire-building tactics. That said, I still consider it a success for my fledgling personal AI mod; if the barbarians hadn't forced me to crank out even more units than I had intended, I surely would have fallen to the AI, despite the trickle of units it was bringing in.
 
If I restarted I'd tech Archery first and i'd build 2 archers after my 2 scouts and then monument/settler. With an early army you can easily get several barb camps which will give you about 500 gold and you can settle the faith mountain early.
You can then use that gold to spend on infrastructure.

From there you should have enough of an army to protect yourself
 
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