1.9.7 Feedback

Fluffy_Rabbit · Apr 25, 2013

@Ahriman, I note your comments re city placement though I really do not agree. I can see the AI has difficulty with it since the mod is so different from vanilla. I am not an immortal player, however I have many Dune wins at that level and the main reason is my good city placement (generally min distance with back-filling) v AI poor placement, which in long term leads to a big advantage to human. I have even seen AI cities which are one square too far from a groundwater which is not used by any AI city, which then AI then builds a fort to give groundwater as a strategic resource - which is pointless since groundwater is never traded anyway though it appears in the diplomatic screen.

Also the polar region easily supports cities no more than three tiles apart (talking about the map where the polar region is central). My experience is that maximum overlap works very well, a little like vanilla civ though to a greater extent.

Where human has gone Paradise and/or has some polar water, cities tend to have way more food than they can possibly use, though in recent games I have tended to ignore the polar region and concentrated on a compact defensible structure as large as my REX/econ/military permits.

Sometimes I even wish I could place cities 2 tiles apart ...

I also agree with the other poster who has been attacked by BG Kwisatz units - they should definitely be 'defend only' units. I would say the rocket launcher/missile trooper/mongoose line also, since only properly promoted mongoose troops are good attackers and then only against the right units. Generally though the AI is pretty good at warfare.

I am not too bothered about spies not entering AI cities when at war, I did not really think it was necessarily a bug anyway. Best way to use spies is to spread them around when at peace, fortify, wait for promotions and opportunities.

Anyway, still playing it and still loving it, thank you

ChrisAdams3997 · Apr 26, 2013

Well, while I'm glad that it works for you, I can say that the game is not designed around the intent that cities should be crowded together (though I see no reason to try to necessarily remove it as a valid strategy either, good games allow multiple paths to success while still allowing failure as well). It's my belief that a very small number of players use this strategy and I for one prefer to follow a more typical city placement strategy if for nothing else than the immersion value over the possible min/max viewpoint that it's less efficient.

On that note, most players would likely find it very gamey if the AI indeed crowded cities as close together as it could and it would make invasions a massive pain in the a... well, you know.

Since I'm here, if you don't know, I'm the guy that basically rewrote and optimized the AI's economic and growth priorities (most of the placement code is from davidallen, though I made some small updates mostly around flavor for spice or terraforming minded AIs). I know it's not perfect, no AI is, but it beats the hell out of the vanilla BTS or even BBtsAI at pacing with a good human player in terms of city growth and research pace. Even with the lessened cheats I gave it in the handicaps. It's been rewritten from the ground up to deal with the differences in terrain, importance of desert(e.i. 'ocean'), etc, such that it's barely recognizable from the original code. I wouldn't complain too much if I were you, no other total conversion mod I know of has done half as good at adapting the AI to such sweeping changes, nonetheless beat vanilla performance

.

Ok, done with my rant, :lol:

Fluffy_Rabbit · May 25, 2013

Chris, in my comments I said Dune Wars is my favorite mod, and I think it is the best mod for Civ4, so any criticism is in that context - i.e. not really criticism at all.

I am pretty sure the AI would automatically be much stronger going for min-distance cities - the fact that you say that would be gamey and make the AI harder to invade, well, that is the same point, is it not? AI would be in better shape. Also AI treats "coastal" tiles rather like the normal AI - normally better to be one square off coast and get more land in BFC since desert tiles not really useful and there is no advantage, trading, tactical or otherwise, to building on coast.

A new point is: why does AI never build the Monitor Project? I must have played Dune 100+ times and never seen an AI Monitor. Certainly a game-changer/winner and a bonus for the human player. Something must have been changed in the AI values since all AIs go for space when they can - and I am guessing Monitor is some sort of modification of the Spaceship programme?

I just played a game as BG and as normal stacked my four Kwisatz units for a huge stack advantage. I wonder if BG AI could be taught to do that (I know nothing about coding that sort of thing) - has been mentioned that BG sometimes use Kwisatz as combat units. A rule that Kwisatz units should be kept in capital until Kwistaz Haderach (4th and final iteration) is made would assist AI.

Also, and this is probably about basic Civ4 mechanics, not the mod, the AI frequently puts huge stacks in range of tactical Nukes. In a recent game AI lost 30% of army to two nukes in one turn - accepted peace immediately on very good terms for human (city, technology etc).

Anyway, i do emphasize these are just observations. I have also played K-Mod a great deal and I do understand AI programming is not easy!

The two big points I would make are: (1) AI would do better to overlap BFCs; (2) AI should prioritize Monitor.

The result would be, I suspect, no more Immortal wins for me

Folket · May 26, 2013

Fluffy_Rabbit said:
Also AI treats "coastal" tiles rather like the normal AI - normally better to be one square off coast and get more land in BFC since desert tiles not really useful and there is no advantage, trading, tactical or otherwise, to building on coast.

I'm not agreeing with you. I find that the AI does not build enough coastal cities. I allmost only build coastal cities since they will give me better reach for spice which are very important for the economy.

Fluffy_Rabbit · May 26, 2013

I see the argument you make Folket - perhaps a matter of taste - I would rather have the production from land tiles and make cultural improvements more quickly - plus one tile inland one will have more food for a specialist economy. Like I said, not disagreeing ....

Ahriman · May 28, 2013

I am pretty sure the AI would automatically be much stronger going for min-distance cities

We used to have the vanilla AI placement in early versions of the mod. When we added davidlallen's improved code, we did benchmark tests with autoplays, noting AI score and aggregate population/economy after various turn counts. The AI performed significantly better under the modified code than it did with vanilla. The vanilla AI code absolutely wrecks the AI because water is so dependent on a few tiles, and the vanilla code doesn't take into account that a bonus resource already within the BFC of another one of your cities doesn't help a new city.

I don't think we benchmarked Chris' additional improvements, but I would be very surprised if the AI did better without them.

A new point is: why does AI never build the Monitor Project?

Maybe just an issue of missing flavors? I never see AI monitors because I win or lose or quit before that point.

I find that the AI does not build enough coastal cities

I don't find coastal cities to be very important at all beyond the early game. Cultural boundaries expand a long way, and the thresholds are much lower than vanilla. So one range less of culture doesn't make much difference from the midgame onwards, whereas more access to water resources makes a significant difference.

I just played a game as BG and as normal stacked my four Kwisatz units for a huge stack advantage. I wonder if BG AI could be taught to do that (I know nothing about coding that sort of thing) - has been mentioned that BG sometimes use Kwisatz as combat units. A rule that Kwisatz units should be kept in capital until Kwistaz Haderach (4th and final iteration) is made would assist AI.

My understanding is that there are a lot of limits to what is possible with the tactical AI. The AI already has some incentives to use Kwizatz units with big stacks.

this is probably about basic Civ4 mechanics, not the mod, the AI frequently puts huge stacks in range of tactical Nukes.

Yes. The AI still suffers from most vanilla Civ4 weaknesses, with the exception that the ability to conduct intercontinental attacks with transports is much improved in the mod.

It's also worth noting that the goal of the AI is to be fun to play against. Nukes come really late, by that late we really want the game to be something you can finish up, so using nukes to destroy massive AI stacks is fun and is a good way to get a winner.

JosEPh_II · May 28, 2013

ChrisAdams3997 said:
<snip>

On that note, most players would likely find it very gamey if the AI indeed crowded cities as close together as it could and it would make invasions a massive pain in the a... well, you know.

<snip>

Ok, done with my rant,

I'm one of those players that want the AI and player to crowd cities together. Every tile is a treasure to be used not looked at. Early Rise of Mankind allowed this style of play and I fell in love with it. Invasion just require a good supply chain.

This style also allows Culture to be Very important and not be neglected like so many mods do now.

JosEPh

Folket · May 29, 2013

Ahriman said:
I don't find coastal cities to be very important at all beyond the early game. Cultural boundaries expand a long way, and the thresholds are much lower than vanilla. So one range less of culture doesn't make much difference from the midgame onwards, whereas more access to water resources makes a significant difference.

My answer was directed towards Fluffy_Rabbits comments about AI city placement. As for if it is important or not depends on your strategy. I like playing a spice economy since it is so different from any other civ4 game. With Arrakis spice, chaom headquarters, guild research center and cave of visions getting a few extra tiles into the dessert is more important. You can always have an other city pick up any water you miss. While if you do Arrakis Paradise there is no point in having coastal cities. All you do is spread your moisture into the dessert.

I would be cool if this was different flavours for the AIs. Some AIs spamming coastal cities and culture trying to get as much spice as possible while others build fewer taller cities inland.

ChrisAdams3997 · Jun 2, 2013

I would be cool if this was different flavours for the AIs. Some AIs spamming coastal cities and culture trying to get as much spice as possible while others build fewer taller cities inland.

They actually do part of that, added it ages ago. AI's using or planning to use paradise civics devalue desert tiles when settling, while those planning on a spice economy tend more towards the coast to pick up more spice in the long run.

Now, taller cities... to do that right you'd need to create a new strategy hash that an AI may or may not take that would have to tie into a lot of different aspects of the AI, or in other words, would be a ton of work to do right. I know, it sucks, but, it is what it is.

I don't think we benchmarked Chris' additional improvements

Oh, I ran just a few autoplays when I was AI programming... just a few... :lol:

. Plus quite a few playthroughs with me playing as well keeping an eye on AI progression with a player in the mix.

My understanding is that there are a lot of limits to what is possible with the tactical AI

Yep, the way the AI is coded is to attack with the whole stack, winning or losing, in a rather arbitrary order. It compares the stack against the stack it's attacking including terrain and defensive modifiers, etc., and decides if it falls within a certain probability of winning, then initiates a 'stack attack' that throws in everybody. I thought several times about rewriting many parts of that code to use intelligent order when attacking, hold back certain units, pull back if the fight turns hopeless if the beginning attacks fail miserably. You know, all the things a human player might do. But it was a bigger rewrite than I had time to do.

LeBashar · Jun 13, 2014

I don't want to post a new tread just for a small question so I will post here : in all game of dunewars I have played (1.9.6 , 1.9.7 and dunewars enhanced mod ) the house harkonnen is always bad, and don't sucess to become a major power when it is the AI who play. This is the same for any of the three leader available (usually rabban is le worse, and feyd-rautha the "best" ). I like to understand why this house don't be played well by the AI while in a human player's hand, hakonnen are really powerful.

Is it because the strenght of the house is not well understand by the AI engine ? or because the leader programation is not in synergy with the house ? or maybe because the traits of leader are a bad association ? have you any clue ?

brotherofbuff · Jun 13, 2014

Is this the same content as enhanced? I could not get the enhanced file working.

LeBashar · Jun 14, 2014

It's not the right topic for ask that. Here is for feedback.

JosEPh_II · Jun 22, 2014

Is any dev looking over the differences between 1.9.7 and Enhanced for 1.9.7 improvements?

JosEPh

Folket · Jun 24, 2014

I do not think there is any active developer here.

Yamato · Jun 24, 2014

I have played around in the files of civ 4 games in the past, so I know a little about doing this, but I still would like some help with it.
I want to change the Sardaukar Nokkaurs (sp?) to just Sardaukar.
I think that was a left over from when there were two types of Sardaukar units, but now that there is just one I want the unit to just be called Sardaukar

Folket · Jun 25, 2014

Last I looked there was Sardaukar legionaires as well.

isenchine · Jun 25, 2014

@ Yamato: XML/Units/CIV4UnitInfos.xml - locate the unit and its description tag. Either it's typed directly there or you have a 'TXT_KEY_UNIT_LION' or something...

Then search for that 'TXT_KEY_UNIT_LION' in the text folder (a Windows explorer search works here).

Change as you wish.

darkedone02 · Jun 29, 2014

One thing that I wish while being part of the arrakin paradise civic is that i wish my automated workers stop building forts up top of these grounded wells and start making wells.

AbsintheRed · Dec 21, 2015

Deliverator said:
>>>>>>>>>> Download Patch 1.9.7 <<<<<<<<<<<

This is only a patch and requires the full Dune Wars install 1.9.1. As with the previous patches, this includes all post 1.9.1 patches in it and can be installed directly on a fresh 1.9.1 Installation, or any previously patched version of it.

1.9.7 Patch Notes

+ Fixed viewing Promotions in the pedia

+ New Worker Automation options: Build Spice Harvesters and Upgrade Improvements (e.g. Shallow Well -> Deep Well)

+ Withdrawal from combat logic now looks for the best defended plot with the least enemy threat to it

+ Improvements can now be built on Polar Sink

+ Removed 'Pick Religion' option from the code entirely

+ Salt pan trade enabled.

+ Added scroll bar for Homeworld Screen City list - now you can transport units to latest additions to your empire.

+ No Ship can no longer move into tile with a unit that it is at war with - it may only attack. Also No Ship may no longer enter unguarded cities if you are at war with the owner. This is to prevent weird behaviour with units jumping to a new position.

+ Made some promotions available to the Carryall unit class (Many promotions allowed for other unit classes are not valid since Carryalls cannot attack).

+ Carryalls and Suspensor Transports can no longer pillage

+ Assault Cannon can no longer fortify for defensive bonuses

+ Industrial complex now has 10% production bonus on top of the +5 hammers and free techman.

+ Suspensor destroyers no longer receive defensive bonuses

+ Max Trade Routes raised from 8 to 50 (this is meant to be arbitrarily high, unfortunately due the way the code works setting it too high results in very very very long turn times. 50 should be enough.)

+ Can no longer build the House Shield Generator in a city that already has a Force Shield

+ Must have CHOAM as current State Religion to build Commodities Exchange

+ Implemented zero upkeep for Mahdi Zealot and Mujahid - no longer contribute anything to Unit Cost or Unit Supply

+ Created a few new buttons for buildings so everything should now have a unique icon even if 3D art is shared.

+ Every Non-State Religion present in a city now causes an additional -2 to happiness. The Bene Gesserit's Missionaria Protectiva building negates this. This should discourage religion spamming and make Inquisitors more useful. Note: if you have no State Religion then every religion present in a city will cause an additional -2 happiness.

+ Added religion flavors to Great People to allow more techs to be bulbed - Imperial and CHOAM to Great Nobleman, Thinking Machines to Great Scientist and the remainder to Great Prophet. Disabled the Great Person display in the Tech Screen as it was incorrect and it's not worth the effort to fix it. Probably further reviewing of tech flavours is needed to increase the number of bulbing options available.

Spoiler :

Enjoy

Just to be sure, as I wasn't closely following the recent development of the mod:
Revival includes every fixes and improvements from previous versions? The 1.9.x versions (1.9.1 and 1.9.7 in particular) have some really significant improvements as well.
'Enhanced' is especially confusing, with the difficulty to follow it's already implemented / pending changes and then it's sudden removal. Did any improvements there make it to Revival?

Please post any feedback you have. I'm not sure when I'll get time to do more work on the mod, but here is a short list of things I would like to do to complete the mod if I get the chance:
GAMEPLAY

1. Sonic Tank - Atreides lower strength medium scorpion, but with collateral damage.

2. Harkonnen Factory:
For example, their factory could be:
+10% hammers
+10% hammers, +1 unhealth with ore resource.
+10% hammers, +1 unhealth with nitrates resource.
+10% hammers, +1 unhealth with crystal resource.

3. Ecaz bonuses - cheaper/special offworld units.

4. +900% against LazaTigers for Kwisatz Units?

5. Levy trooper change

6. Atomics changes

7. Polar outposts:
"As I think about this idea, I think I like it. I'd go so far as to say let it be an automatic building that you don't have to build that only shows up in polar cities (Ahriman's suggestion of 'polar outpost' seems fitting enough to me to call it) reducing the maintenance there."

8. Kindjal Fighters prereq:
"I do think that Kindjal fighters have always been a bit too easy to beeline.
Any thoughts on what be a logical alternative tech requirement, that would help slow them down?"

9. Disable Advanced Start

ART

High priority: (look out of place/repeated art used)

CHOAM Em
Zealot/Mujahid
Narcotics Dealer
Sardaukar Agent
Traitor
Kwizatz Units
Smuggler

Lower priority (has Unique but could improve):
Beesting/Wasp
Missile Trooper - reskin and anim
Mongoose Trooper
Devastator/Re-Skin and button
Great Merchant
Heavy Troopers

Maybe:
Scout Thopter
Legionary/Noukker
Fish Speaker -> DOW Assassin
Razzia Raider

Also, do you guys have anything left on your todo list, after Revival 1.06?
Any further short- or long-term plans?

Deliverator · Dec 22, 2015

AbsintheRed said:
'Enhanced' is especially confusing, with the difficulty to follow it's already implemented / pending changes and then it's sudden removal. Did any improvements there make it to Revival?

Also, do you guys have anything left on your todo list, after Revival 1.06?
Any further short- or long-term plans?

Revival is a completely separate modmod from Enhanced and I don't believe it contains any of those changes. The gameplay improvements in Revival are all Mr M's work - I just provided some artwork improvements. It does contain a long list of bugfixes and improvements including those from all the 1.9.x versions. The best way to see what has changed is to have a look through the Dune Encyclopedia.

I don't know whether Mr M is planning to release any versions of DW Revival. It may well be that 1.06 becomes the final version. You can watch the ModDB page to see if any updates appear there.

1.9.7 Feedback

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Deity

Chieftain

Tyrant

TBS WarLord

Deity

Prince

Warlord

Chieftain

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TBS WarLord

Deity

Warlord

Deity

Empress

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