When to build NC?

I've been reading a lot lately, and I'm not really a "good" civ5 player, I can win games if I apply strategies, but I just like to go with the flow...

When do you find it the best to build NC for maximum effectiveness? I'd found strategies of rushing philosophy to build it in the cap THEN expand out... build 2-3 cities before building it, what is the best way?

NC is good to have up by turn 60. At least, that's been the number brought up in most conversations I've had about the NC. I've seen some players experiment with a Liberty opening with only their capital city, rush to the NC, and then once they've built it start going as wide as happiness allows.

I think for Tradition openers, the focus is on rushing Education. Of course, that means going through Philosophy. But, the important thing here is the focus on Education by turn 120-125 or so. Here, the NC takes a back seat to Education because tradition openers will likely have two or three cities already down or about to be down by the time turn 60 comes around, making the NC a little more difficult to rush. That's why people who play Tradition openers follow with Rationalism. Gotta get da beakers. Haha

NC: As soon as possible.

If you're at a low enough level in which you can build the Great Library: That is between turns 55 & 60 standard speed. (1 city NC with Philosophy chosen as the free tech and NC started the moment GL completes.)
Otherwise, in both Vanilla and G&K, that was 2 city NC between turns 70 & 80.
In BNW where early gold is much harder to come by, that turn number can be higher, not that's its ideal being higher; it's just that it can't be helped. Basically, the moment the second city is built, you run a comparison between time to get 400 gold and time that second city could hand build a library and if gold is the bigger problem you end up building a 3rd city, with that 3rd city being the one that cash rushed a library. But what you want to avoid is your second city being both poor in production & gold (even after it grows); such a site would be a better third city site than a second site.

When you can, build it. That might be t60 it might be as late as 110. But when you are able to get it then get it.

I dont hold off on settling a new city just to build the NC if its a very good spot. Other than that; yea, build it sooner than later...

I've experimented with a lot of different openings. Actually, a good portion of my total Civ 5 playtime is just the first 115 turns... lol.

In BNW I feel most comfortable with 1 or 2 cities then NC.

Both scenarios have pros and cons. NC sooner gets it out of the way and usually results in more military (time/gold spent on rushing settlers/libraries is instead spend on military). NC later allows you to grab some key spots on the map and allows for some extra time for your secondary cities to bulk up a bit before mid-game.

I'm going to go devil's advocate here and say I think it very much depends on how capital-focused your early empire is, and that I'm not convinced that the NC - and early-game tech in general - are anywhere near as big a deal as they're often made out to be (at least on immortal and below).
I think you can really cripple yourself by chasing science too hard too early, instead of investing in overall empire development. Tech in itself primarily provides you with opportunities, rather than concrete and immediate benefits. You have to have the development to actually capitalise on that tech - there's not much point racing to Education if it then takes you forever to actually get those universities built, and if staffing them then cripples your cities' future development. Or if racing to NC/Education means that someone else has taken all the good land because you didn't expand.

I've been playing wide lately and finding that I get much better overall results the more relaxed I am about science. With a wide game in particular, you don't really need much in the way of tech early-game - a steady stream of settlers, workers and archers, couple of trade units and then a few monuments, circuses and colosseums as appropriate. Libraries are way down the list of priorities. I've found myself sprawling out to about 7-8 cities while filling out the basic worker techs and construction, then going for writing as pretty much the last ancient era tech, then hitting philosophy about when the empire is ready to build the NC.
Yeah, you end up a long way behind in tech this way, but you're not gonna run out of stuff to build. And a few extra troop numbers will do fine in holding off an attack from a technologically-superior enemy. You get a fair bit of tech from trade routes and settling a scientist at the end of Liberty, and it gives a nice production/population base that can really accelerate your tech for the rest of the game. Tech parity by late renaissance/early industrial on immortal, in my experience (with unis in only about half my cities - probably faster if you really focus on building libraries and unis everywhere).

I'm sure plenty of people will disagree with this approach (and you definitely want to focus harder on the NC if you go tall), but below deity you'll be amazed by just how easy it is to catch up from a tech deficit if it was incurred in the good cause of developing your empire.

Jon the Bastard said:

NC is good to have up by turn 60. At least, that's been the number brought up in most conversations I've had about the NC. I've seen some players experiment with a Liberty opening with only their capital city, rush to the NC, and then once they've built it start going as wide as happiness allows.

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Is that on Quick? Turn 60 is extremely early. I've won Deity games with Japan where I didn't get the NC until turn 90.

Ritzy Cat said:

I've been reading a lot lately, and I'm not really a "good" civ5 player, I can win games if I apply strategies, but I just like to go with the flow...

When do you find it the best to build NC for maximum effectiveness? I'd found strategies of rushing philosophy to build it in the cap THEN expand out... build 2-3 cities before building it, what is the best way?

Click to expand...

Depends on the map. Go for the NC immediately if your start is growth heavy and isolated.

In other situations, I may interrupt science progression toward Philosophy with resource improvements and minor wars to capture workers and or dissuade expansion by opponents on to MY ISLAND.

Personally i think the answer is it doesnt really matter when you build it, so long as you have it high up on your list of priorities.

What i would say is that if you have 3 superb city spots you want to settle and you are close to other AI, then you should claim those 3 city spots before you build NC because in the long run it will pay huge dividends. There is a tipping point in how useful a city is going to be, and that is dependent on many things like: luxuries, access to the sea (trade), natural wonders, food resources, strategic resources, choking points etc. If you have 2 or 3 good city sites and room for a 4th, less attractive city site (for example in tundra with a couple of luxury resources), then its probably best the build NC instead of settling.

I actually think turn 60 is early for NC. I would say the average turn i finish NC is turn 90. Sometimes im as early as turn 60, but rarely as I think expansion far outweighs an early NC. Sometimes im as late as turn 120. Play on immortal.

Depending on the number of juicy expansion sites I try to get 2 cities out and the NC built around turn 80-90.

It's not unknown for me to send off a settler with an escort and have them parked where I want another city to be while I wait for the capital to finish the NC.

I find generally parking a few units where you want to expand puts the AI off from settling there.

uncle bulgaria said:

It's not unknown for me to send off a settler with an escort and have them parked where I want another city to be while I wait for the capital to finish the NC.

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Bingo!
There have been a couple of times when I had my head up my butt and dropped my city like 1 or 2 turns before the NC was done.

...time to load an auto-save...

On Immortal I find getting my 4 cities up is a much bigger priority than NC. Otherwise I don't get to expand at all

I've had games where it's up on turn 110 and still won a science victory if I then beeline to Education and get universities up ASAP. Like others say - depends on the map, neighbours, capital, etc...

Actually I think BNW is nice for this. In G&K it was a total priority, but with spies, trade routes and that world congress policy, there's a lot more ways to catch up now.

Well technically NC isn't needed at all. Once you get a large science base and begin using RA's/GS's, you still end up surpassing the AI. It is essentially an observatory, and it isn't like not getting one of those completely throws away a game.

NC is useful in that it allows you to "expand" without actually expanding; the science gained being similar to settling a new city. As long as you are expanding and growing without it, I wouldn't worry too much about exact turn times.

How fast you go for the NC depends on a few things:

If you're very close to other AIs and don't expand first, they will take the lands around you while you're building the NC. That's not a good start as a few more cities is > NC. If you can get away with a 'choke point' city (preventing AIs from settling behind that city) then you can build the NC earlier.

If you beeline Philosophy and an AI neighbour DoWs you, then you are less likely to have units and can lose quickly, so that's not a good plan either.

Otherwise, an earlier NC is a better NC. It gets you to Education/late medieval units faster which means that everything else comes faster as well. When you start planting Great Scientists for Academies (especially with a Liberty Start) then the NC earlier really helps push that along.

The reason Liberty players like an earlier NC is that the cost scales with the number of cities you have. So if you wait for the 8th city to get a library, you're also massively increasing the cost of the NC. It's sometimes better to get it done 'now' and pause expansion, than to mass expand and 'eventually' build it, especially when there are typically other important buildings/units/etc to use the hammers on by the mid game.

As soon as you can without getting murdered. Turn 80-85 is a good time to get it but anything under 100 is "acceptable".

MadDjinn said:

How fast you go for the NC depends on a few things:
The reason Liberty players like an earlier NC is that the cost scales with the number of cities you have. So if you wait for the 8th city to get a library, you're also massively increasing the cost of the NC. It's sometimes better to get it done 'now' and pause expansion, than to mass expand and 'eventually' build it, especially when there are typically other important buildings/units/etc to use the hammers on by the mid game.

Click to expand...

Some Liberty players advocate using the Liberty finisher on a GE, though, which mitigates this. It's a little annoying that it increases the cost of your first Scientist and it does require some focus on Monuments/a cultural CS to get it in a reasonable time, but it can be worth the investment especially if your start is hammer-starved to begin with. It also saves you from having to spend any hammers at all on NC and on other things like military, caravans etc.

Then again there's the question if going to 8 cities with the current BNW tech scaling is even worth it in the first place

I prefer to get it out of the way sooner than later, especially for Liberty starts. In G&K I was more comfortable doing something like 4 cities then NC, but in BNW I find it too difficult to realistically build libraries/NC while also trying to support economy and happiness. The bulk gold trades in G&K along with gold on river/ocean tiles made that process much easier.

Most BNW games for me are either two cities with rush-buying a library in the second city and sending a food route back to capital, or NC off of one city while building archers, then mass expanding/conquering after that.

It depends a lot. Merchant is a huge boost in higher difficulties, you can delay NC a bit because of that. On my experience I feel comfortable with NC with 2-3 cities in turn 80-90 as usual outcomes.

It depends of the kind of approach.

-1 city GL-NC approach(immortal or below) : NC around 50

-1 city NC : 60

-2 cities NC : 70

-3 cities NC : 80

-4 cities NC : 90

These averages can be achieved if land can offer enough hammers and happiness to afford all buildings in time. An early DoF or 2, some insane locations and some civs can accelerate these average.

Early warfare is different. Under Tradition a 2 cities rush or Liberty 3 cities is enough to achieve it around 80-90 couple with some puppets. Make sure to have nice spots so you can annex and get more science from them.

I have an idea!
What if we just beeline writing early on to get other techs that we need quicker, this is also useful because if we already have writing we can build libraries early therfore we can build the NC quickly without haing to slow expansion down.
Just make sure you have enough production in all cities (mined hills are a good option).
Also, you should probably get an early worker beacuse culture is not a massive priority (But mines are).
Production in the NC city you ask?
As stated earlier, Mines! These mines will do wondersif you use them right.
So lets say your capital has 6 pop by the time you are ready to build the NC, up to this point you should have mostly worked farms, so when the time has come to build the NC, work a couple of about 3 food tiles and the rest sjould be mines, even dou you wont grow for a couple of turns you will get the NC up quickly and therefore have early science without giving up expansion.
YAAAAAAAAAY