The OP of GL... or is it just me?

So I've been on a tear of playing games to earn achievements. And in doing so, I have beelined for the GL right away. I notice that once I have it, everything is easier. I'm ahead in technology, so I can get the Wonders I want before getting sniped. And this just has a snowball effect. Better units for defense. Caravels earlier for exploration. And so it goes.

So no matter what else happens, it just seems that the GL and research in general is OP'd in this game. I know it's been said before, but I never noticed just how much of a factor it was until I played several short games in a row.

I don't think there is any other wonder that gives such a distinct advantage. Is there?

And on another quick topic... why do so many Civs go for the religion policy track? I keep seeing the bonus belief announcement pop up. So it isn't just one or two heavily religious civs... it's most of them on any given map.

Weird.

too much stuff tied to one wonder, Great Scientist points, +3 science, free library, free tech, and 2 slots for writings and potentially a theming bonus? I would probably be ok with a nerf.

It comes at a cost, specially on Emperor/Immortal where it can be gone quite fast, you must absolutely beeline GL and chop some forst for any real chance. But I'm agree to some point, the real thing is that sience >>>> all

If I shoot for the GL, I can't shoot for a settler OR if I do, my capital is tiny... But yeah, it could use a nerf.

Just play on a more difficult level. You won't find it OP if the AI always beats you to building it.

GL has too high an opportunity cost and should be avoided in most games. Getting early infrastructure, settlers, etc up and out is worth a lot more than what you get from the GL. Try using a strat that does not involve the GL, but focuses on growth and science and you will see win times increase by 50 or more turns

If you're playing immortal/deity, there's a 90% chance that it's impossible to jack the GL, and if you manage to, you've crippled your self with everything else and would probably be better of having developed better.

Playing emperor, it's rare I can get the GL and all my settlers\workers, usually only if my Capital is very high production and I'm playing 2-city NC. Like my last game, for example. It's a hit or miss. If I do get comfortably, however, the early game is much easier.

Yeah... the problem if I play at higher levels, then if I don't get it, I'm even more behind from the start. But I agree, there is a trade-off with early production cost. I just have a tough time resisting the temptation.

If you're at a higher difficulty, you don't even bother trying to build it. It's not worth it. I used to have this same problem with Petra, but these days, I prefer to work on the fundamentals that are always available to you: fast 3-4 cities, lots of food and pop, and national college.

Thank you for that. I am a wonder hog, and I need to stop it. Instead of rage quitting when I don't get the wonder I want, I need to just play a solid steady game. I'll try that next time. Would say it isn't worth it to get any wonders? Or just to avoid the ones that are high priority for AI?

arand86 said:

If you're playing immortal/deity, there's a 90% chance that it's impossible to jack the GL, and if you manage to, you've crippled your self with everything else and would probably be better of having developed better.

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But you'll have that sweet sweet sweet satisfaction of feeling that you know there's a ramesses out somewhere in there world throwing a hysterical fit that he was beaten to the Great Library by a human player SOMEHOW. Great Library is basically a wonder reserved for AI's use only to the point where it really annoys me alot.

I've built every single wonder except for the damn Great Library. And that one time where I almost got it, I was beaten to it by one turn even with a picture perfect start. I was so sore over it so I decided to beat the AI to every single other wonder in ancient, classical, medieval, renaissance before I decide to let the AI stop suffering in industrial era from wonder withdrawal.

Yes, built stuff like Petra, Parthenon, Colossus, and great lighthouse that is normally AI only. I hope that dude with Great library think it's worth it not being able to build anything else cuz i wonder hogged in revenge for several eras.

AIs that met me suffered from intense case of wonder envy. xD The modifier was bright red even on first turn or two after meeting.

I think it is OP; in multiplayer the argument that "the AI will beat you to it" doesn't hold up. Also, "the AI will beat you to it" is more a matter of them being cheating [expletive]. It's still a really powerful wonder based on it generating science above and beyond, and offering opportunities for theming bonuses culturally later.

Singleplayer: Wonderspam is much less viable in Civ5 compared to Civ4, because you no longer have as many crazy techniques to accelerate wonder production. Back then you could rack up huge amounts of production via clever whips/chops. Like Obsolete was notorious for Diety wonderspamming.

Well, I've never been good enough back then, so as always, focus on fundamentals and not on the swingy stuff.

Multiplayer: I'm still not a fan of building GLib. Well, I guess it depends on the size of the map. Tight maps make it more dangerous, because not only do you fall behind on military, but you also fall behind in #cities and #pop, and that makes you further vulnerable.

It's dangerous going 1 city GLib-Philosophy-fast NC, because there is a long period of time where you're stuck on very low pop (you go max hammers for GLib, then moderate hammers going MC, then max hammers again to pump 2-3 settlers to catch up on growth and expansion. And you'll be behind on food for a long time as well, because you will lack workers to farm your new cities. Contrast with someone doing a more traditional 3-4 city build, they'll have double your pop and food, and while they'll have less tech they'll actually have an opportunity to exploit it. You won't because while you'll lack pop and production.

Plus, theming bonuses are basically useless for MP because you are not burning more than one writer for mere works. And no one's trading away their works.

Callonia said:

But you'll have that sweet sweet sweet satisfaction of feeling that you know there's a ramesses out somewhere in there world throwing a hysterical fit that he was beaten to the Great Library by a human player SOMEHOW. Great Library is basically a wonder reserved for AI's use only to the point where it really annoys me alot.

I've built every single wonder except for the damn Great Library. And that one time where I almost got it, I was beaten to it by one turn even with a picture perfect start. I was so sore over it so I decided to beat the AI to every single other wonder in ancient, classical, medieval, renaissance before I decide to let the AI stop suffering in industrial era from wonder withdrawal.

Yes, built stuff like Petra, Parthenon, Colossus, and great lighthouse that is normally AI only. I hope that dude with Great library think it's worth it not being able to build anything else cuz i wonder hogged in revenge for several eras.

AIs that met me suffered from intense case of wonder envy. xD The modifier was bright red even on first turn or two after meeting.

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AI doesn't panic, it recalculates.

HeraldtheGreat said:

AI doesn't panic, it recalculates.

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Recalculating for vengeance upon the impudent meatbag that stole the Supposedly reserved for AI great library.

HeraldtheGreat said:

AI doesn't panic, it recalculates.

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It does hate you for taking wonders it wanted, though.

The AI has always hated organics. Haven't you guys played mass effect? jeez.

I've never been impressed with GL. The free tech is negligible in many cases, +3 science isn't all that much (a single trade-route will give you that much). Free library isn't actually free; you need to drop all those hammers on the wonder. The early GS points are nice (popping first GS much sooner than normal), but not game-breaking.

If I'm playing on a low enough difficulty where I could realistically build it, I still ignore it in favor of other things. Occasionally fun, I suppose, but never thought of it as overpowered.

I only go for it playing as Babylon as you start getting GS points with it and the 50% boost in GS production means you're spamming them out right at the start.

As any other civ I pretty much ignore ancient era wonders completely apart from Temple of Artemis which the AI doesn't tend to go for from what i've seen - I've never been beaten to it. I've only recently stepped up to emperor level though. Quickest i've seen the GL go on King was turn 49 (standard pace)

I go for 2 cities plus NC then expand to 3 and ideally 4 while focussing on food and population growth - science comes from that and trade routes, you can catch up the free tech relatively quickly. I take whatever food and growth religious bonus I can get