SGOTM 15 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts

@Grifftavian

Excellent results with the Great Artists. Diplo looks like being fun as well. Have to wait till I get home to look at the save though everything is looking good.

Cross posted with Grifftavian just a couple of thoughts.

Diplo even with the DP with Liz we are still likely to be her target if she is still wheeoh though we at least get Hammy involved as well. Danger in Hammy being FR Shaka might attack him though not sure if he has dp with Liz as well? Makes it interesting anyway.

Can't see banks/grocers having enough effect to make them worth building. Hopefully we've only 50 turns or so till the end.

Getting back from an RL diversion ... nice defense of Kyoto!

So what does the roster look like after all of the bobs and weaves?

dV

A beautiful turnset Griff

Can we get a screenshot of the F1 screen, and I'll update the spreadsheets. Screenshots of the 3 legendary cities would also be nice.

DPs with multiple civs can get really confusing. But I'm sure the more we have the merrier. I'm off to read the Autolog.

3 Artists, 2 of them at not brilliant odds. Great stuff

You know, the GPP spreadsheet did not assume we had Mercantilism - we actually have it with quite some time remaining. Once I have screenshots I'll update the SS and I'm hopeful that the extra free artists in all cities will make a real difference. At the very least, it will probably shuffle some things around.

With Liz at Pleased, are there any techs we could trade off her? I imagine she has such a lead on us that we have nothing to offer her.

Meant to post some screen shots right after my turn set; here they are now!

adrianj said:

3 Artists, 2 of them at not brilliant odds. Great stuff

You know, the GPP spreadsheet did not assume we had Mercantilism - we actually have it with quite some time remaining. Once I have screenshots I'll update the SS and I'm hopeful that the extra free artists in all cities will make a real difference. At the very least, it will probably shuffle some things around.

With Liz at Pleased, are there any techs we could trade off her? I imagine she has such a lead on us that we have nothing to offer her.

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Don't have anything to offer anybody really now. Even Hammie so only way he might close borders with Liz is if we asked as as a friend. No begging off Liz either if we see a stack coming from her we can ask for 1 gold for the 10 turn peace deal.

Could sell music to Hattie for her 140 gold but she is the only one we have any techs on at all.

Fish resource to the south has a wb near it we should net those this turn and sell for the best price.

LBs from Osak/tokyo should be moved to Kyoto. We want as much defence as we can get there (within reason) and the 25% fortification bonus might come in useful at some point.

We have OB with Hatty - interesting. Must have come through AP? Are we using it to explore in that direction? Would be good to get more advance warning of a stack coming from that way.

The DP situation looks complicated. Liz has DPs with Genghi, Cyrus, Hatty and us. If for example Liz were to attack Hammu, causing us to attack Liz, would we then be declared on by Genghi, Cyrus and Hatty? Or would Liz's DP with the others terminate immediately on her declaring war on us? I sure hope it's the latter.

Delhi MM: Assigning artists in Delhi gives much more than what the mines/quarries can produce through building culture. Take the Marble Quarry for example: 3 = 13.5 + 4 = 17.5. Assign an artist instead and we get 6*4.5 = 27 . So, assign an extra 4 artists in Delhi. Total of 5.

The same for Bombay: drop the mine and assign an extra artist. Total of 7.
The same for Kyoto: drop the copper mine, and assign an extra artist. Total of 8.

adrianj said:

The DP situation looks complicated. Liz has DPs with Genghi, Cyrus, Hatty and us. If for example Liz were to attack Hammu, causing us to attack Liz, would we then be declared on by Genghi, Cyrus and Hatty? Or would Liz's DP with the others terminate immediately on her declaring war on us? I sure hope it's the latter.

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All DPs are dropped when an AI attacks another, so Liz's DPs would be cancelled before she declares. We would still be dragged in if she declared on Hammy but the others wouldn't.

Who is UP??

I've updated Culture and GPP spreadsheets.

Culture

GPP

How does victory on T238 sound? (1640 AD).

The bottleneck is definitely Kyoto and GP production. I've got Bombay down as receiving 5 bombs, Kyoto receiving 8, total needed is 13. Delhi will be legendary about T230, the others 7 or 8 turns later.

Thanks to Mercantilism, and Bombay+Delhi+Kyoto assigning more artists (see previous post) I'm hopeful that we can get a total of 13 GArtists by T235, with a 14th by T240. There is a little bit of MM involved, which I'll explain.

The order we can expect is:

T199: Tokyo. We will need to try to speed up Tokyo and slow down Delhi to make sure it beats Delhi. (cost 1600)
T202: Delhi. (1800). ~60% GA.
T209: Kyoto. (2000)
T212: Bombay (2200). 86% GA.
T219: Vijay (2400).
T226: Agra (2600).
T232: Varanasi (2800).
T236: Kyoto (3000).
T239: Delhi (3200 or 3300??) ~76% chance GA.

With Tokyo - I see it is currently -2/turn, and will starve in 11 turns. I've guessed that means it has 22 food in the bin.
I suggest we go one more turn at -2, then add another artist from a farm, putting it at -5/turn. Do that for 4 turns and then just before it starves assign entire population as artists. Hopefully this generates an artist end of T199.
Meanwhile, Delhi assigns one less artist for a couple of turns (assign 4 instead of 5).

I also suggest Delhi build a Grocer, though there is no hurry - assigning artists is more important than working mines/quarries.

adrianj said:

We have OB with Hatty - interesting. Must have come through AP? Are we using it to explore in that direction? Would be good to get more advance warning of a stack coming from that way.

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Yes, I forgot to mention that an AP vote came up during my turn set. There were 3 stop trading options and the OB with all members option, so I took the OB vote. Hammie & Hattie voted against it, but we had enough vote to pass it. I probably should have sent a unit exploring eastward. However, I just double check the game, and Hattie is running Org. Religion Civic. It might be worth the effort to start sending Hindu Missionaries to Egypt to do some exploring and spread the word. It would also give us a little more income from our Hindu Shrine.

For that matter, with Hammy in Free Religion and the Christian Shrine in Bombay, Should we start sending Christian Missionaries to Babylon?

adrianj said:

Delhi MM: Assigning artists in Delhi gives much more than what the mines/quarries can produce through building culture. Take the Marble Quarry for example: 3 = 13.5 + 4 = 17.5. Assign an artist instead and we get 6*4.5 = 27 . So, assign an extra 4 artists in Delhi. Total of 5.

The same for Bombay: drop the mine and assign an extra artist. Total of 7.
The same for Kyoto: drop the copper mine, and assign an extra artist. Total of 8.

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The 1 Artist in Delhi is the Freebie from Mercantilism. I though about assigning more in Delhi, but was worried that it would reach legendary status even earlier than the other two cities. I see now that we're counting on some GA's from Delhi. Guess I should have made some notes on where we needed to generate the GAs before I started my turn set.

Ozbenno said:

...
Who is UP??

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Per the original rotation list in Post #2 you were up after me, but IIRC you just played recently over the weekend, so I guess that would make dV up next.

Cost of a msisionary is what, 40 ? (aka, 40 through wealth building).

If somewhere like Tokyo built them it would take 8 turns, plus 4 - 6 turns travel time. If we consider there is only 45 turns left in the game, then the spread religion will only return about 32 through the shrine. Even if a city built them in 1 turn, it's still not a positive return on investment.

With Hatty and Hammu voting against us in elections, probably better if we don't spread any more Hinduism anyway.

As for who is up - who is ready and willing? It's probably more important to keep the pace up than it is to maintain a normal rotation.

adrianj said:

As for who is up - who is ready and willing? It's probably more important to keep the pace up than it is to maintain a normal rotation.

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Think this is right, who can play a few turns in the next day or so?

I can probably play some tomorrow AM.

~12 hours from this post maybe.

For help with planning the PPP - here is a summary of how many artists are assigned in each of our cities over the next 10-15 turns.

Tokyo: 6 x three turns, 8 x three turns (city will likely starve), 5 x one turn = 3.5*3* (3*6 + 3*8 + 5) = 493 = just enough to produce the 1600 cost GA.

Delhi: 4 x one turn, 5 x six turns = 3.5*3* (4 + 5*6) + (9*7 from wonders/buildings) = 420, just less than enough to beat Tokyo.

Bombay: 7 artists.
Kyoto: 8 artists.
Vijay: 6 artists.
Varanasi: 5 artists.
Agra: 6 artists.

Patal: 0 artists. No more than 2 merchants.
Osaka: 0 artists. No more than 2 merchants.

If we wanted to, we could really micromanage by trying to avoid having an odd number of base . Since Parthenon adds 50%, if we have an odd number we lose the 0.5. An MM solution would be to alternate between assigned artists, eg, Varanasi assigning 6 artists one turn, 4 artists the next. At this stage though, it's not like our game really depends on it, so only do it if you really want to.

More PPP help/suggestions...

Bombay & Kyoto need to finish their last two culture buildings (Christian Monastery & University) then can start building Culture.

Pata is building our first Maceman just in case we are attacked again. I'll suggest building three more Macemen, giving us 2 for Kyoto & 2 for the Fort NW of Pata, and then have Pata go back to Wealth.

Delhi is already building Culture, and all other cities are building Wealth, no need to change those unless we are attacked again.

Can sell Music to Hattie for 140 Gold this turn. Kyoto has finished building it's Christian Cathedral, so can sell Stone to the highest bidder. We can also probably sell Marble as well, as I don't believe we need it to build anything else.

All of the tiles on the east side of Kyoto's BFC have their improvements, so we could send the Fast Worker 2E +1NE of Kyoto off to explore Hattie's lands to the east.

Research doesn't matter too much at this point. I started us on Engineering in case we need a Castle for Kyoto's defense, also for the road movement bonus and the ability to upgrade Spears to Pikes. I'll suggest Printing Press as the next tech to research. Finishing Gunpowder is an option if we're attacked again.

Looking over the save I've noticed a couple of things.

Delhi might as well build wealth rather than culture as it will become legendary before the other cities. Then again Kyoto especially doesn't gain much from the slider approx 4% per 10% slider so def have to rely on artists.

City builds. castle might not be a bad idea when we have engineering for Kyoto. perhaps paranoia is settling in..

Spare worker turns could be used farming towards Vijay. Not sure if the farms will help this late on but if the workers are feeling lazy it will give them something to do.. Tho good idea sending one through hatties lands. Might ebven get to see Liz's!!

Delhi is currently 40 turns to Legendary status, which is well ahead of Bombay & Kyoto.

Reassigning the 2 Grass Hill Mines & the 2 Quarries to Artists as aj suggests will reduce the time to Legendary down to 37 turns.

With 5 Artists, if Delhi builds Wealth vs. Culture, the time to Legendary goes up to 38 turns, and our treasury deficit is reduced from -83 Gold/turn to -72 Gold /turn.

The treasury is currently 959 Gold, so building Wealth in Delhi instead of Culture would gain up an additional 2 turns at 80% culture before we would need to reduce the Culture Slider.

If we sell Music to Hattie for 140 Gold (Treasury goes to 1099) and if we sell Stone to Shaka for 11 Gold/turn & sell Marble to Huaya for 13 Gold/turn (deficit reduced to -48 Gold/turn) we would be able to stay at 80% Culture for another 22 turns before needing to reduce the Culture slider.

I did suggest about the music to Hattie earlier (and netting the fish).

Delhi whether it builds culture or wealth will still be legendary before the other 2 cities so was working on the fact we need the gold more than the culture but tbh there is very little in it. According to AJs graphs Delhi will be legendary approx turn 220 round about 16 turns before we can hope for the artists. Well thats if I'm reading it right which isn't guaranteed..

I am going to follow the spreadsheet and suggestions and play some turns now.