SGOTM 14 - Kakumeika

I like the idea of Nationalism Now, because:

1) We can easily have two Golden Ages (The Taj Mahal and single Great Person generated).

2) With a quick build of MoM, we get "three normal lengeth" GAs for the price of two.

3) !t may be a while before any AI gets to it, especially if the Western Witches pursue other research branches instead (otherwise they would most likely get there first).

4) Gives us more time to generate Great Scientists such that using one GS to bulb part of Astronomy may be feasible; maybe slowing GP Farm GGP generation and speeding up Gems City GGP generation would allow Gems City to generate our sixth and GP Farm to generate the seventh on the same or following turn.

5) We could begin drafting Musketmen as soon as we steal Gunpowder (after Electricity and after we are done with Bureaucracy though).

On the other hand, after we have Electricity, our Great People could become the source of additional Golden Ages. 1 GP -> 1st GA; 2 GP -> 2nd GA; 3 GP -> 3rd GA. The Taj Mahal simply adds one more to this sequence. We may be able steal Nationalism from its likely 1st discoverer, West Witches, and build The Taj Mahal before it can in a "throw away" city. In my opinion the city bcool describes where we want The Taj Mahal, becomes its major value to us is in its completion (Golden Age); once the GA starts, it could be captured and would have no value to the conquerer, whereas we would need to defend the same city with MoM to retain its effect for at least subsequent Golden Ages. At 700H, Taj Mahal would be a stretch unless there really is a site with 10 BFC Forests -> 10 x 30H x 2 (Marble) = 600H; Not sure how to get the remaining 150H / 2 (Marble) = 75H "base hammers".

A thought triggered by this thought...
Build MoM in a new city settled by the 10 forests spot in the hub.? That would only need 7 forest chops to build the 450 hammer wonder. If the build fails we basically convert forests to gold. Not a bad plan I don't think...

Where is the hub location with 10 Forests? I could find several with 8 Forests in the BFC, but none with more Forests.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
I'm away from the game the 10 forests was from memory. So it might not exist. There should be screenshot from mabraham with the site I had in mind but hard to find on my phone
 
Just an aside not really related to this turn set:

With the discovery of Scientific Method, The Great Library loses its major effect of two free Scientists and the 2 x 3 base Great Scientist points it generates, but it still generates 2 Great Scientist points.

University of Sankore has the same base 2 Great Scientist points plus 2 Bpt per State Religion building for the likely duration of this game for 550H / 2 (Stone) + Forge if present. We are building a lot of State Religion buildings, especially Temples which will retain this effect past SM when Monasteries become obsolete. It not a bad use of Hammers, assuming one doesn't something better to build. The time to build it is fading fast; if we are lucky, it will be built in a city we plan to capture, maybe? (rhetorical question that expects _no_ answer).

OK, I'll get back to the PPP revision work.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
I'm against the Globe Theater for the following reasons...
1) We are planning 1 war, so the need for sustained drafting is non-existent.
---We are going for a UN victory guys. if we do 6 rounds of drafting that is 18 muskets. We can get 18 muskets out of
GPfarm x 1
Washington x1
Gems x2
Stone x2
Sheep x2
Phants x2
Silver x2
Fur City x2
Cultural Bridge x2
Marble x2

We have almost all the happiness resources. We have yet to hook up incense and fur, plus we likely will be able to get wine. So we have at least +2 more happiness than we do now.

We have 16 base happiness in cities without forges or markets.
+4 starting
+1 charismatic leader
+1 religion
+10 resources in our own borders (maybe +1 if we can trade for wine)

A city that is size 10 or less can easily draft twice without worrying about happiness. The theaters are just not necessary. Size 11 or 12 cities yes they might get some happiness issues as they regrow (but these cities probably have forges and/or temples)

We do not need theaters. Or the Globe theater to draft an army of 18 muskets. Yes if we want more than 18 muskets maybe, maybe the Globe theater is worth, but really we are going to want more than 18 muskets? (This in addition to the units we whip under police state).

I'm not sure than 18 Musketman will be enough to even subdue the Eastern Witches. They have double our population and can build military units much faster than we can. We can't depend on our "useless" AI allies for any military help of any kind, really. We are going to be fighting two AI Civs simultaneously. Currently the Eastern Witches both have a power rating that is well over double ours right now; they will not be push overs. We need double the number of Musketmen that you want to draft at a minimum; we might need more. We can draft down to a Population of 5, so each city we draft from must have a Population of at least 6. It is more efficient to draft from smaller cities of Population 6-8 which can provide a draftee every turn for 1-3 turns respectively. However, we want to grow the bulk of our empire so our vote will count for more in the DV ballot. However, the drafting happiness rises rapidly and the whipping will deplete our populations further.

We need a source of main line units (Musketman when the time comes) that we can draft every turn without running into Happiness issues or depleting its Population, since should be possible to grow 1 Population every turn based on maximum growth of the city and its Granary halving this requirement. That city is GP Farm with Globe Theatre.

2) The alternative to theaters and the Globe Theater is much more attractive to me. Namely 7 galleons!

I would much rather have 7 galleons (560 hammers) than 6 theaters and the Globe Theater (600 hammers in total).

Or I would much rather have 600 gold than the theaters and Globe Theater for that matter.

Galleons why we need them...
1) hunting the wizard
a galleon chain might be needed to transport a large force to take out a nasty wizard unit.
a galleon chain might just cut a significant number of turns off of a cross map journey that might be needed.
2) Speeding up the conquest of the eastern witches.
We are going to need a significant navy to efficiently fight the eastern witches. And we are going to want the load of building those boats to be distributed out to cities without barracks ideally.

The need for Galleons is not directly related to whether or not Globe Theatre and six prerequisite Theatres is a good strategic move.

You can argue that the Hammers spent on Globe Theatre can be spent in many others ways too with some justification, but just because you can spent the Hammers for another useful thing doesn't by implication make Globe Theatre a poor to fair investment of hammers.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
re: military units in Isengard

STZ is concerned that we are going to be paying for maintenance on the military units we finish. I think this is short sighted.

2 war elephants can capture the barbarian city and get at least 100 gold from capturing this very old city. That alone will pay for the war elephants and the 4 longbows we want out of Isengard for 18 turns.

I really really like building military units using our Heroic Epic city. I really really dislike building a library and university in my Heroic Epic city.

STW or Sun Tzu Wu, please do not use "STZ". I don't know what "STZ" means, but I can guess that in the context of this game is it slang for Sun Tzu Wu. ;)

It's our Heroic Epic city. Moai Statues has added a Hammer to Shore plots; as you these to add a Hammer you are adding two Commerce as well. Thus, Isengard is becoming more of a Commerce city, so quickly adding a Library and University makes sense, assuming one doesn't have a critical military build to finish first. We plan to run Research 100% after Oxford University for a very long time, so the these research buildings are likewise profitable in multiplying research for 30+ turns. Don't forget that Dorthy's Philosophical trait makes Universities a 100H bargain. We might consider other cities with rising commerce as well for Library + University builds.

The two War Elephants have been added to the queue before a Horse Archer build.

re: playing soon
I think we need some consensus on the theater/Globe theater issue and military units from Isengard before we give the green light to have STZ play. I would like some serious consideration to be made to these issues. I'm okay if STZ can only play today and not tomorrow, but I think there are some serious matters to discuss still.

In regard to Globe Theatre, I will be starting only a Theatre in GP Farm due to it low Hammer rate. I don't think 3 Hpt for 11t commit to something potential useless or critical needs to delay the turn set.

In regard to military builds for Isengard, there are two WE and one Horse Archer, partial Temple and then Library. The University won't come up in my turn set, but I still think its a good idea. We can build 3 XP longbowmen, but I think settling a Great General in Isengard before building a lot of units would be better.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
I'm not sure than 18 Musketman will be enough to even subdue the Eastern Witches. They have double our population and can build military units much faster than we can.

Their units are cheaper, but we have an empire that is pre-organized to switch to producing a lot of hammers off workshops, and we have a strongly optimized HE city. 18 muskets will also not be the total army - we'll keep reinforcing since the only other useful thing to build will be missionaries and UN.

We can't depend on our "useless" AI allies for any military help of any kind, really.

Correct. We will be the first to DOW, so they will target one of our cities.

We are going to be fighting two AI Civs simultaneously.

Yes, but they won't combine their armies, so we can use the normal divide-and-conquer approach. Four longbows and castle in Cimmerian will keep Ragnar busy for some time, and we'll get advance warning that it will be going to fall. It's not like they will have had trebs for any length of time before a DOW in maybe 14 turns. Muskets and airships will be great against anything Asoka sends into the field.

Currently the Eastern Witches both have a power rating that is well over double ours right now; they will not be push overs.

But our power rating is made up of (from memory) 2 elephants, 1 chariot, 1 spear, 1 axe, 2 archers, 10 warriors, 1 galley and a couple of barracks. AIs having double that is not very scary. 18 muskets would be well more than double our current collection. We're adding four longbows and two elephants in the short term, as well as having naval dominance, airships and treb support. Sounds like plenty of stuff to me.

We need double the number of Musketmen that you want to draft at a minimum; we might need more. We can draft down to a Population of 5, so each city we draft from must have a Population of at least 6. It is more efficient to draft from smaller cities of Population 6-8 which can provide a draftee every turn for 1-3 turns respectively. However, we want to grow the bulk of our empire so our vote will count for more in the DV ballot. However, the drafting happiness rises rapidly and the whipping will deplete our populations further.

Assuming we need something like 61% of the world to vote for us (judging from the screenshot I took of the resolutions screen at T144), we need something like 5 "spokes" worth of population voting for us. If West and North will vote for us, I expect we can conquer most of Asoka to be well over the 60% mark. Yes, drafting and whipping doesn't help our population, but I think we have enough of a buffer. If we can't get them to vote for us, then we will need a longer war, but I think that's really only a matter of replacing the trebs we use and keepin' on truckin'.

We need a source of main line units (Musketman when the time comes) that we can draft every turn without running into Happiness issues or depleting its Population, since should be possible to grow 1 Population every turn based on maximum growth of the city and its Granary halving this requirement. That city is GP Farm with Globe Theatre.



The need for Galleons is not directly related to whether or not Globe Theatre and six prerequisite Theatres is a good strategic move.

You can argue that the Hammers spent on Globe Theatre can be spent in many others ways too with some justification, but just because you can spent the Hammers for another useful thing doesn't by implication make Globe Theatre a poor to fair investment of hammers.

Sun Tzu Wu

Diverting hammers is relevant because we are racing against a clock. We need many things before the war can start rolling - defenders for Cimmerian, trebs, airships, navy and we have other distractions also (missionaries for conversion, maybe some wonders). The 600 hammers required for the Globe Theatre would show a benefit over a period of time beginning with the third draft from GPfarm - since we'd draft at least two without GT. We would have to draft 80 hammer muskets 8 times to show a profit on raw hammers, and they still have to spend 5-10 turns to get to the front. Meanwhile the boats and supporting units that would have been built instead of those 600 hammers of buildings and wonders would be already near the front lines and ready to go.

The trade-off is connected to the length of time needed to show a benefit. There's a lag time of at least 8-10 turns for the first additional unit from a GT-drafted GPfarm to make a difference. Meanwhile we could have already conquered the first two cities if we had five trebs and three maces for those 600 hammers (assuming the same supporting units in each case). Getting the West and North to friendly is a race against time to get the diplo bonuses to add up, and I think a GT-based strategy assumes that length of time is large and that we need masses of units. I think our tech edge is quite comfortable, our tactical decisions will be great and our production capacity without GT at least on par with the AIs.
 
It's our Heroic Epic city. Moai Statues has added a Hammer to Shore plots; as you these to add a Hammer you are adding two Commerce as well. Thus, Isengard is becoming more of a Commerce city, so quickly adding a Library and University makes sense,

Assuming 8 2:commerce:coast plots, plus 3 single commerce from the pastures and central tile and two 3:commerce: trade routes, Isengard produces 25:commerce:/turn. So the 25% beaker multiplier buildings generate 6 beakers/turn at 100% slider when they are complete. Library and university cost 90 and (effectively) 100 hammers to produce. Suppose that's 5 and 6 turns each, so that they have something like 25 and 19 turns to pay off during the beaker push. That's 190 hammers spent to get 389 beakers. Meanwhile we could have spent 190 hammers to get 380 hammers worth of units. That's a very small fraction of our required beakers, and more hammers than we currently have in army. The relative value of hammers in Isengard are much more important as units than they are in beakers.

City specialization is a key to doing well in Civ4 - having specialized, we should cater to that in the absence of compelling evidence.

assuming one doesn't have a critical military build to finish first. We plan to run Research 100% after Oxford University for a very long time, so the these research buildings are likewise profitable in multiplying research for 30+ turns. Don't forget that Dorthy's Philosophical trait makes Universities a 100H bargain. We might consider other cities with rising commerce as well for Library + University builds.

The time to pay off is less than 30 turns because these buildings take time to build.

The two War Elephants have been added to the queue before a Horse Archer build.



In regard to Globe Theatre, I will be starting only a Theatre in GP Farm due to it low Hammer rate. I don't think 3 Hpt for 11t commit to something potential useless or critical needs to delay the turn set.

In regard to military builds for Isengard, there are two WE and one Horse Archer, partial Temple and then Library.

I'm not even sure about a Tao temple. Doesn't building the UN do something to the AP such that we might lose hammer bonuses?

The University won't come up in my turn set, but I still think its a good idea. We can build 3 XP longbowmen, but I think settling a Great General in Isengard before building a lot of units would be better.

Yes, a GG first would be elegant, but we are racing against time. We need units to get a war going. Building few units to barely get a GG to build more units of higher value later is not going to lead to faster victory than building max units now and more units of higher value later.
 
Earlier war needs more units and this delivers faster diplo bonuses and population gains. Sounds great for a couple of gold. As our population grows, so does our quota of free units, I think.

Can you please tell me what you mean by "earlier war"? I was thinking maybe sometime after Physics to be able to build a few Airships and also to maybe get more intelligence on the where abouts and nature of The Wizard. Maybe 10t after Physics to mobilize three branches of the military, army (Musketmen and Trebuchets), navy (Galleons) and air force (Airships).

We are currently 11 units over our free allowance and that is costing us 11 Wpt, plus we are 5-6 units over our allowance of 4-5 free out of Culture units which is costing us 3 Wpt. These aren't huge costs and we definitely can afford them now. However, a plan to build dozens of units well before Mass Media will strain our economy such that we can no longer afford 100% research.

Ok, I guess by "earlier war", you mean start the war earlier to accrue "shared war" diplomatic bonuses. These go up +1 for every 10 turns regardless of game speed. We will probably want to start the war as soon as the option is available from a TAP resolution which happens every 10t, starting from when TAP was built. It may be a while before we have enough vote to start a holy war. That would depend on our converting our allies to the TAP religion.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
This is the most accurate test game. I am putting it here because it was only downloaded by one person. I see that people have been downloading the file that bcool had requested for trying to make the test more accurate. He said he couldn't improve upon it. That would not be the best one to use.

Use the test game below. It is one food short in Culture bridge and Phants City and has seven hammers excess in Phants.

The GP are off a bit, but bcool's spreadsheet should take care of this.

The farm 1N of Silver City is broken - it actually produces 2:food: not the 3:food: shown in the city display. Changing it to desert and back to grassland seemed to fix it. Also, Mansa's capital is about to build a wonder which breaks the game on my computer. Worldbuildering ocean and rebuilding the city fixed it. Also, Isengard doesn't have a barracks, which it surely has in the real game.
 
Can you please tell me what you mean by "earlier war"? I was thinking maybe sometime after Physics to be able to build a few Airships and also to maybe get more intelligence on the where abouts and nature of The Wizard. Maybe 10t after Physics to mobilize three branches of the military, army (Musketmen and Trebuchets), navy (Galleons) and air force (Airships).

We are currently 11 units over our free allowance and that is costing us 11 Wpt, plus we are 5-6 units over our allowance of 4-5 free out of Culture units which is costing us 3 Wpt. These aren't huge costs and we definitely can afford them now. However, a plan to build dozens of units well before Mass Media will strain our economy such that we can no longer afford 100% research.

Ok, I guess by "earlier war", you mean start the war earlier to accrue "shared war" diplomatic bonuses. These go up +1 for every 10 turns regardless of game speed. We will probably want to start the war as soon as the option is available from a TAP resolution which happens every 10t, starting from when TAP was built. It may be a while before we have enough vote to start a holy war. That would depend on our converting our allies to the TAP religion.

Sun Tzu Wu

Post 2633 suggests holy war in 14 turns. This idea got support in 2639 and 2640. Perhaps you didn't see these posts?

We want the holy war to start ASAP so that we are a better chance to be in position to win early UN votes if we have killed the wizard. Clearly there's some unknowns here, but so long as we have been building units out of Isengard, we can't get hurt by earlier war. Hence wanting units from Isengard, not buildings. The gold to support these new units that will capture cities for more population and get us closer to diplo votes for victory could be our best-value spending in the whole game.
 
Also, the earlier the war, the fastest we might do a near-complete kill of East, perhaps to have so much population we only need one other team to vote for us.
 
The farm 1N of Silver City is broken - it actually produces 2:food: not the 3:food: shown in the city display. Changing it to desert and back to grassland seemed to fix it. Also, Mansa's capital is about to build a wonder which breaks the game on my computer. Worldbuildering ocean and rebuilding the city fixed it. Also, Isengard doesn't have a barracks, which it surely has in the real game.

This seems to intermittently do this. One solution would be to put corn there and a note that the tile cannot be improved.
 
Assuming 8 2:commerce:coast plots, plus 3 single commerce from the pastures and central tile and two 3:commerce: trade routes, Isengard produces 25:commerce:/turn. So the 25% beaker multiplier buildings generate 6 beakers/turn at 100% slider when they are complete. Library and university cost 90 and (effectively) 100 hammers to produce. Suppose that's 5 and 6 turns each, so that they have something like 25 and 19 turns to pay off during the beaker push. That's 190 hammers spent to get 389 beakers. Meanwhile we could have spent 190 hammers to get 380 hammers worth of units. That's a very small fraction of our required beakers, and more hammers than we currently have in army. The relative value of hammers in Isengard are much more important as units than they are in beakers.

City specialization is a key to doing well in Civ4 - having specialized, we should cater to that in the absence of compelling evidence.

You are right, except Isengard is a hybrid city (Primarily Military, Minor Commerce).

Since Isengard is also a Hammer City, it can quickly hammer a Library (4t) and University (5t; Philosophical trait bonus).

Building extra units in Isengard now with give units that will quickly become obsolete, have only 3 XP and each one will cost us 1 Wpt. Building these soon to be obsolete units may make us feel a bit safer and the War Elephants taking a Barbarian city for Diplomatic gain is excellent, but the Longbowmen won't help much in an offensive war, will cost us significant wealth to maintain and while they will probably hold Cimmerian they won't be helping offensively one iota.

If we could build something useful like Trebuchets in Isengard that would be great, but I'd prefer an extra 2 XP via Vassalage or Theocracy or Great Military Instructor. Trebuchets in particular are far more effective against cities using CR2 than CR1 promotion. Also Trebuchets (like all non-Machine Gun siege units) gain only 1 XP per successful barrage engagement, so the extra "training" +2 XP is really import. I would definitely build 3 XP Trebuchets in Isengard, assuming I had no way to boost the XPs.

You have consider the technology and promotion level of the troops being mustered to determine whether to bother with it at all. Build the Library and University in Isengard now while there isn't much of any military unit worth making! It's obvious to me; I'd don't understand why you and bcool are so resistant to the idea; there's nothing sacred about Heroic Epic that it can't be left idle when there aren't any particularly useful military units to build. I caution against trying hard to think of military units to build so you can deny the Minor Commerce city that Isengard is.

Perhaps I should just push through Library + University after the justifiable two War Elephants and one Horse Archer? We can build another Horse Archer for the next Taoist Missionary. Thereafter, maybe the two Horse Archers can cycle fast enough to protect all Taoist Missionaries coming through heading for the West Witches.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Perhaps I should just push through Library + University after the justifiable two War Elephants and one Horse Archer? We can build another Horse Archer for the next Taoist Missionary. Thereafter, maybe the two Horse Archers can cycle fast enough to protect all Taoist Missionaries coming through heading for the West Witches.

I am OK with building the library and if we still cannot build trebs, build the university too. If we are going to try to build the MoM city, Isengard might be a suitable place to build a settler instead of a library. Realistically, I believe calendar has been around way to long for us to have a chance at the MoM.
 
Also, the earlier the war, the fastest we might do a near-complete kill of East, perhaps to have so much population we only need one other team to vote for us.

Of course we must do a near-compete kill of the East Witches and never sign a Peace Treaty with them. We must allow them enough cities to survive our Allies and the Barbarians, so our "shared war" doesn't decay as far as we can control that and our allies continue to have someone to hate, even if there's a way for them to make peace (which I rather doubt)!

Sun Tzu Wu
 
apology
STW my apologies for using STZ accidentally.

Isengard

In regard to military builds for Isengard, there are two WE and one Horse Archer, partial Temple and then Library. The University won't come up in my turn set, but I still think its a good idea. We can build 3 XP longbowmen, but I think settling a Great General in Isengard before building a lot of units would be better.
We don't need the horse archer in Isengard because 3 members of team (at least) have suggested that it is a bad idea to convert the southern witches to taoism. So the horse archer is not needed as an escort anymore.

The war elephants have some urgency for them. And the longbows have some urgency for them as well if we plan to start a holy war in 14 turns. I'm pretty sure we don't have time to build a temple and a library and met the goal of capturing the barbarian city and to delay Ragnar in any early holy war.

The temple's bonuses will go away when we tech Mass Media in about 33 turns. So the temple will produce at best 60 hammers for us. So it will return about as many hammers as it will take to build plus it will delay some important military builds. I think we can abandon the temple. And I really want to abandon the library as well. Isengard is the only city that can produce military units at half price, while we can build wealth in other cities to get the same benefit as a library in Isengard would give us.
 
You are right, except Isengard is a hybrid city (Primarily Military, Minor Commerce).

Since Isengard is also a Hammer City, it can quickly hammer a Library (4t) and University (5t; Philosophical trait bonus).

Building extra units in Isengard now with give units that will quickly become obsolete, have only 3 XP and each one will cost us 1 Wpt. Building these soon to be obsolete units may make us feel a bit safer and the War Elephants taking a Barbarian city for Diplomatic gain is excellent, but the Longbowmen won't help much in an offensive war, will cost us significant wealth to maintain and while they will probably hold Cimmerian they won't be helping offensively one iota.

Elephants and longbows will not go obsolete against East for quite a long time, e.g. Rifling. We hope to have won the game or killed East long before East can get about 7 more techs. So for practical purposes they will never go obsolete. Even if they do, we will need MPs for the cities we capture so our offensive units can keep moving.

The longbows occupying Cimmerian do heaps for our offensive war - they stop Ragnar from bothering us and allow us to focus on Asoka. The wealth they cost is not significant - a few gold when our costs are around 100/turn. The GGs those longbows will earn on defence are multiplied by two from TGW. The fastest way to get the GG you covet is to DOW and take some action from Ragnar's puny stack and have some units built in Isengard snipe Asoka's frontier scouts, units and cities.

If we could build something useful like Trebuchets in Isengard that would be great, but I'd prefer an extra 2 XP via Vassalage or Theocracy or Great Military Instructor. Trebuchets in particular are far more effective against cities using CR2 than CR1 promotion. Also Trebuchets (like all non-Machine Gun siege units) gain only 1 XP per successful barrage engagement, so the extra "training" +2 XP is really import. I would definitely build 3 XP Trebuchets in Isengard, assuming I had no way to boost the XPs.

Yes, and I'd like a million dollars. :) But useful stuff earlier is better than slightly more useful stuff slightly later. We need more than trebuchets for war in 14 turns. We need longbows for Cimmerian, some war elephants in case knights turn up, a crossbow or two, and then some trebs.

You have consider the technology and promotion level of the troops being mustered to determine whether to bother with it at all. Build the Library and University in Isengard now while there isn't much of any military unit worth making! It's obvious to me; I'd don't understand why you and bcool are so resistant to the idea; there's nothing sacred about Heroic Epic that it can't be left idle when there aren't any particularly useful military units to build. I caution against trying hard to think of military units to build so you can deny the Minor Commerce city that Isengard is.

It's a minor commerce city. I've already shown approximately what the beaker gain from these buildings would be - about half a turn worth of tech by the time our empire is full teching (~775 beakers/turn). So it is minor. Nowhere else can build troops at anything like the rate of Isengard. We need troops fast. We built the HE for a reason. It's time to use that reason.

Perhaps I should just push through Library + University after the justifiable two War Elephants and one Horse Archer? We can build another Horse Archer for the next Taoist Missionary. Thereafter, maybe the two Horse Archers can cycle fast enough to protect all Taoist Missionaries coming through heading for the West Witches.

Sun Tzu Wu

Three of us are keen for a war starting in 14 turns. Nobody has suggested more beakers buildings except for you (edit: recent support from shulec for library), and some thought from bcool of an observatory in Washington later on. It is a team game.
 
I am OK with building the library and if we still cannot build trebs, build the university too.

When would you plan to DOW, though? Trebs are not the only thing we need, and longbows and elephants are useful over the whole course of the war. We need to defend the stack and not be invaded and have a distraction for Ragnar.
 
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