Regarding NES Moderation

Thlayli said:

I simply don't like the fact that you'd be okay with someone murdering me if I worked for a government agency.

But honestly, it's more that your tone isn't respectful.

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I simply don't like the fact that you'd be ok with someone kidnapping me and seizing my property and murdering me if I resist, if I don't supply their armies with bombs to go and murder people in third world countries. But I guess you're the good guy?

If I am disrespectful it is because I was being disrespected first. To call me out by name here and call me a domestic terrorist because I have views that aren't in line with yours is not cool. If the dots between my views and a terrorist can have lines drawn, then I guess your views are in line with Stalin's? Which would be ok? To make points you don't have to call people names, is what I'm getting at. And to demand reform because a mod will call you out when you do call people names is ridiculous.

This is not going in the proper direction.

Thlayli - you are not a moderator and have no right to tell someone to leave a thread. Report it and let staff handle it.

Amon - you are going off-topic and you are getting close to trolling. Please step back for minute and take a breath.

Amon Savag said:

I simply don't like the fact that you'd be ok with someone kidnapping me and seizing my property and murdering me if I resist, if I don't supply their armies with bombs to go and murder people in third world countries. But I guess you're the good guy?

If I am disrespectful it is because I was being disrespected first. To call me out by name here and call me a domestic terrorist because I have views that aren't in line with yours is not cool. If the dots between my views and a terrorist can have lines drawn, then I guess your views are in line with Stalin's? Which would be ok? To make points you don't have to call people names, is what I'm getting at. And to demand reform because a mod will call you out when you do call people names is ridiculous.

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Also, the government can't murder you for refusing to pay taxes. It's just tax evasion, for which you'd have your wages garnished or eventually go to jail.

Now you are off the topic.

You're right. For that, I apologize. It was the off-topic nature of the comments that caused me to request Amon to take such discussion elsewhere.

Really, as much as I support the general thrust of our demands, I can see why the moderator staff would get annoyed at the sanctimoniousness and snarkiness of the language being directed at them. If we are going to be mad at the staff we should at least have the testicular fortitude to do it without the childlike smart-aleckness of smileys and half-hearted apologies.

So to progress this, what are, in a concise list, the requests of the... hmm, those who want to leave if nothing changes? (Demand is far too strong of a word).

I still think the staff are just trying to do their jobs. I'm obviously the last person in the community of aggravated NESers who even wants to continue negotiating for concessions. 90% of them have just assumed that the staff don't care and are following the exodus based on that assumption.

Obviously keeping my emotions in check is part of that. If the moderator staff is truly uninterested in concessions, then fine, I'll just leave with everyone else. But I still believe that they want to help us.

erez87 said:

So to progress this, what are, in a concise list, the requests of the... hmm, those who want to leave if nothing changes? (Demand is far too strong of a word).

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These are the requests as they have been related to me; and I largely agree with them.

• Someone in charge (preferably an admin) to apologize for the staff's excessive actions and statements in escalating the crisis and treating long-time forum members like "rebels"
  
• Some sort of mod recognition that Amon's open advocacy of violence is wrong and not allowed on CFC
  
• An effort to consult the CFC community at large in reforming the PDMA policy, as outlined in the Site Feedback thread
  
• The selection of an indigenous moderator to replace Birdjaguar, who has largely retired

I don't expect us to get all of these, but hopefully we get some. If we don't get anything, well, that's pretty much it for us. Not a threat, just a statement of resignation.

I still want concessions too, Thlayli.

I'm still trying to find a way to put my words together and further investigating what actually happened on my own.

So with accordance to what I saw the moderators and admins post here, and I can be completely wrong here:

The first is possible but unlikely, people broke rules and were punished in accordance to the rules - that they agreed upon when they signed into the website. But it may happen... at least the second part of it.

The second is probably the most unlikely. They don't agree with those who want to leave on the subject.

The third is a whole-site-related issue being dealt with somewhere else, so it is unlikely to change as a concession to the NESing community.

The fourth is probably the only one that is somewhat likely. Will the leavers be OK with only the fourth one being answered?


What concession are those who want to leave going to make?

I'm not sure demanding an apology from the staff is the right way to go about things. Is that really going to change anything? Do we win any good will, or make ourselves look any more mature and serious, by demanding that the staff say they're "sorry?" Are our feelings really "hurt," or do we just want to embarrass the people we think have tried to embarrass us?

We should concentrate on actual change instead of trying to win petty, symbolic victories.

Lord of Elves said:

I'm not sure demanding an apology from the staff is the right way to go about things. Is that really going to change anything? Do we win any good will, or make ourselves look any more mature and serious, by demanding that the staff say they're "sorry?" Are our feelings really "hurt," or do we just want to embarrass the people we think have tried to embarrass us?

We should concentrate on actual change instead of trying to win petty, symbolic victories.

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That is true.

So what would you say would be a more correct list of changes the leavers want to see?

erez87 said:

So what would you say would be a more correct list of changes the leavers want to see?

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We should be more concerned with the maintenance of the NESing community's internal standards and practices. I think this is the real problem here -- that we feel our own Fueros-esque autonomy is being violated -- rather than that we are concerned that Amon Savag or any other poster is about to commit an act of domestic terrorism. People express off-color views both on and off of CFC regularly and are not dogpiled by the community in the manner that Amon was. As has been the case in the past with the incident vis a vis azaleNES, the community's prerogative to exclude or admonish members who have acted in a way we in general disapprove of has been abridged.

Our primary goal should be to ensure that it is still possible for NESers -- particularly game moderators -- to discourage behavior that isn't good for the overall health of the forum, even if that behavior is just the expression of extreme political views and not a direct threat to the solvency of an NES per se.

I think in that regard the problem (in this specific instance) is reminiscent of a free speech issue. Amon's right to express himself isn't and shouldn't be violated (so long as it's within CFC's rules, which can be debated), but the NES forum shouldn't be obligated to accept or encourage him if he expresses opinions that are abhorrent or just straight-up dangerous. We should be able to police ourselves to whatever degree is appropriate in those instances.

I'm just going to note that Amon did not at any time deny what he said.

I seriously want to see WWW be allowed to discuss non Nesing topics :/

Thlayli said:

These are the requests as they have been related to me; and I largely agree with them.

• Someone in charge (preferably an admin) to apologize for the staff's excessive actions and statements in escalating the crisis and treating long-time forum members like "rebels"
  
• Some sort of mod recognition that Amon's open advocacy of violence is wrong and not allowed on CFC
  
• An effort to consult the CFC community at large in reforming the PDMA policy, as outlined in the Site Feedback thread
  
• The selection of an indigenous moderator to replace Birdjaguar, who has largely retired

I don't expect us to get all of these, but hopefully we get some. If we don't get anything, well, that's pretty much it for us. Not a threat, just a statement of resignation.

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I think I mentioned "seek to understand" and "balance advocacy and inquiry".

I will address a couple of points now:

threats of violence are completely unacceptable on CFC.

I am, however, not fully convinced that that is what was posted. I am seeking other views, reviews and opinions. In relation to this, I would request that people refrain from repeating this allegation as fact. I actually believe that a lot of this issue is related to a difference of opinion over the nature of those posts. Different people have different opinions.

I would also note that the original posts were not reported to the moderators by the community.

The additional moderator demand request is not unreasonable per-se, but the phrasing is somewhat disrespectful to BSmith, who has been a NESer for a reasonably long time.

Given the way some NESers have behaved I don't think we should be holding out for an apology by any mod (although I don't think Thlayli was saying BSmith needed to apologise for anything).

It seems the core of our community has committed to shifting away from CFC and some (accumulative post count in the tens of thousands) are sadly never coming back. Some bridges have been burned.

Its now about preventing a similar situation with other parts of the forums in future. I'm sure the moderators feel the same way, that there are some lessons to be learned, even if they aren't particularly bothered about NES community specifically.

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Could we simplify this down to A: a stronger avenue of appeals, B: more transparency, and C: allowing civilized OT discussion threads for these kind of forums?

Hope we can all see clearly now, that when people get banned and their posts removed, and others are told not even to mention what just happened, they all get frustrated and turn to off-site channels. Ditto having the narrative of WWW confined to NES-specific topics for some arbitrary reasons.

What happened in NES is enough people were outraged at the same time to cause a critical mass. Our alternate channels had already been strengthened due to the way we couldn't talk freely in WWW.

IMO it doesn't even matter if the mods were right or wrong - its the way people get frustrated and are left to feel completely powerless on the forum, and ultimately unable to even communicate here, that's the issue.

The mods have nothing to lose by loosening PDMA. I feel like very few of us were pushing the boundaries and breaking rules.

I'd personally like to know the mods are on our side, there to keep the forums healthy for everyone.

If I am condemned for advocating self-defense against anyone attempting to assault you or your rights regardless of badge, or social status, then I want a condemnation equally powerful against everyone advocating the violence of the state, and especially Luckymoose who explicitly said that he is a thug for the state and would actually cause me physical harm.

<nuke> said:

I seriously want to see WWW be allowed to discuss non Nesing topics :/

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Or at least, can we be clear about why it isn't already? I don't see how we can all go to OT and post to each other there, when that forum is crammed full of random other users, and we're not allowed to launch NES-specific chat threads on that forum.

Amon Savag said:

If I am condemned for advocating self-defense against anyone attempting to assault you or your rights regardless of badge, or social status, then I want a condemnation equally powerful against everyone advocating the violence of the state, and especially Luckymoose who explicitly said that he is a thug for the state and would actually cause me physical harm.

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Amon I think we need to get past this now - your argument with Symph and others was just the spark.