[MOD] Fall from Heaven II

SchpailsMan said:

Something like this already exists in Vanilla (and FfH) with techs that "improve" improvements' yields.

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Ya, farm yeilds. {EDIT: And windmills, and the like, but all income(hammers/gold/food) based. What about resources and strategy improvements?} i have the image of the worker going back to the tile and clocking some hours. Plus if its possible, it could look different as it upgrades.

{EDIT: Or Better Workshops that provide bonuses to wood buildings (a increase in speed for buliding those types of structures, Or Mines for dwarves that add race specific benifits like more food (but a regular mine must be built first). There are a lot of options outside of income generation. IF its possible to program. I Like the idea of Graveyards for any player that dabbles in necromancy. Maybe these improvements KILL the tile, but randomly spawn undead units that belong to the host nation. Upgrade the graveyards to generate better and better units. Graveyard - Cematary - Haunted Mansion - Desecrated battlefield. Graveyards could produce skelitons, Cematarys more often, Haunted Mansion some sourt of vampiric awesomeness, and Desecrated battlefield could produce something nasty, or something less nasty quite often.}

Hello-

I finally broke down and tried the Grigori. I LOVE THEM> Initially I had been reluctant to use them since they are agnostic and cannot access the perks of the religions - ie units, hereos blah,blah,blah. I am not ashamed to say I was wrong. Well the Adventurer unit is by far my most favored unit in the game - his/her ability to hero up & morph, in my opinion, surpasses the benefits of any religious specific hero.

I do have one gripe concerning the Grigori though, however it is of so little consequence it's almost not worth mentioning. As it is impossible to found a religion, or set a state religion (I think) should it not also be impossible for religion to spread to your cities? As of now the western most province of my Grigori Empire is being tainted with the dogma of the Octopus Overlords. I guess it's okay - if they need solice in the arms of lunacy so be it; my big problem is that I cannot access any of the perks of the religion, but my only ancient rivalry holds the Holy City of the OO & can now see into my secular borders & gain monetary benefits from my weaker citizens.

Like I said no big deal but I do think that if the Grigori are fundamentally agnostic than the spread of religion into the cities (with exception of the Cult I guess) should be impossible.

Thanks,
Seamus

I Love FFH2...as we can all tell from my bulk posts.

I would love to see some things that add to the feel of the Mod. Im sure this is for a later addtion or phase, but some ideas are floating and it's best if they land here.

I want to be smaller. I am a control freak, as most civ'ers are, but I want to feel more In the world. I do want to build units, expand the empire, grow cities, and control the aspects of civ that we do. But if one stops to think about it, Everything that happens in Civ is something that A civilzation has done. Even if we include the barbarians.

Id like to feel as though the world were bigger. Not the map, but the scope.
There ought to be things going on in the world that NO civ has any impact on, and that add a bit of randomness (fortune or misfortune) to the mix.

I personally think that my people should be dealt with. Kindly or severely, but a city that has VERY unhappy people ought to either produce barbarian units or turn my units in that city into barbarian units (a costly thought if my units provided happiness, thereby exaserbating the problem.)

Perhaps tectonic shifts might occur. A "rift" (Or a black colored river visual) could form (as a river would) randomly on the map somewhere. Thereby becoming IMPASSIBLE between one side and the other.

Volcanic Explosions would be cool. A peak might turn into (or have a "hole" feature placed on it) a volcano, and the surrounding landscape would suffer.

Famine would be nice to see. Occasionally X Cities (somewhat close together) could suffer from famine, and produce Little to no food from grassland and plains squares. Or other things that decrease food consumption. Food shortages and surpluses are the cornerstone of many fantasy stories, because they alter the normal opperations of mideval worlds. It'd also be good to have a Money-to-food converstion option available like research, wealth and culture. The richer nations could hold off starvation for a while.

STORM would function like famine except it would only affect coastal cities, and instead of little/no food it would be 0 production on water squares, or "bump" the workers off for a while - no boats for a few turns.

I like the idea of More Barbarian units wandering around midgame, and perhaps you've already thought up the idea of More Unique Units like Orthus, but he needs a posse to ride with.

Good things could be things like "Bountiful harvest" The Opposite of famine.

Cities with celebrations of "we love the leader" could provide the opportunty for volunteer forces lest neighbors invade - not the strongest fighters, but volunteers are volunteers.

There should be LOTS...heart be still - of tiles and improvements that would provide the CHANCE of different things occuring.
-Graveyards producing Undead (for other civs or barbarians.)
-Eagles nests producing large eagles (Maybe randomly spawn eagle units that would sit on peaks but have the "valourous quality" in favor of whom ever land they are in.)

It would also be cool that if each time you got a goodie hut, instead of just auto-receival. You had a choice. Not of "what do you want" but more of "what do you tell them". A little text box could come up with a Moral, Intellectual or Military-Might nature. It would provide small amount of information (clue) about the little culture you just found, and you'd pick from the options of "how" to greet them. I think 3 would be good. Your entry could be 1 of MANY variables on how they react. The better they react, the better gift you get. If they dont like you, then perhaps barbarians, or damage to the investigating unit, or disease, or bad promotion, the units death...etc.
The units that exploration/scout units, whome get the "better goodie hut option" could make the text box provide MORE information, thereby getting a better clue as to how to guess. The "first contact box given" for goodie huts could contain information that would reveal if they're partial to alignment, partial or opposed to percentage of research (how much they care about knowledge), or partial to military prowess or not. Each encounter would be unique. The status of your empire, coupled with who investigated the goodie hut, coupled with your decision would deside the outcome.
It would also be great, if goodie huts could appear on the map like barbarian cities. (Nomadic tribes you missed on your first time through)

Anyway. I'd like the impression that I'm sitting on my Iron Throne perilessly, and that I am no God (unless i have God King) and must deal with unimaginable consequences, and unforseeables events. I want the world to be less civ-made and more WORLD-made. It should be a ride.

I wouldn't expect this stuff till the Shadow or Ice phase, but still...it'd be cool.
-QES

seamus75 said:

Hello-

I finally broke down and tried the Grigori. I LOVE THEM> Initially I had been reluctant to use them since they are agnostic and cannot access the perks of the religions - ie units, hereos blah,blah,blah. I am not ashamed to say I was wrong. Well the Adventurer unit is by far my most favored unit in the game - his/her ability to hero up & morph, in my opinion, surpasses the benefits of any religious specific hero.

I do have one gripe concerning the Grigori though, however it is of so little consequence it's almost not worth mentioning. As it is impossible to found a religion, or set a state religion (I think) should it not also be impossible for religion to spread to your cities? As of now the western most province of my Grigori Empire is being tainted with the dogma of the Octopus Overlords. I guess it's okay - if they need solice in the arms of lunacy so be it; my big problem is that I cannot access any of the perks of the religion, but my only ancient rivalry holds the Holy City of the OO & can now see into my secular borders & gain monetary benefits from my weaker citizens.

Like I said no big deal but I do think that if the Grigori are fundamentally agnostic than the spread of religion into the cities (with exception of the Cult I guess) should be impossible.

Thanks,
Seamus

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THe leader is Agnostic, that doesnt mean the people are. Religions are the "crutch" of the masses are they not dear grigorian? Just cause your leader thinks its a waste of time doesnt mean that his people wont fall into the causes. I DO think that temples and the like should not be accessble, because frankly those are state ran projects. I've not tried them, so if they're not buildable, then thats cool.

Conversely, it might be neat if the Grigori got an Athiest Inquisitor Unique Unit. Purge any/all religions.
-QES

QES said:

Conversely, it might be neat if the Grigori got an Athiest Inquisitor Unique Unit. Purge any/all religions.
-QES

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Makes sense to me, a group of people going round and making sure the lands are free of them pesky religions

chocmushroom said:

Makes sense to me, a group of people going round and making sure the lands are free of them pesky religions

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Maybe call them "Commies"

J/k.

If you check the Units thread you'll see that such an atheist inquisitor unit is already planned; the Luonnatar. I don't know when it'll be added, though, but it's definately supposed to be at some point.

Corlindale said:

If you check the Units thread you'll see that such an atheist inquisitor unit is already planned; the Luonnatar. I don't know when it'll be added, though, but it's definately supposed to be at some point.

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Forgive me, Wheres is this "units thread" I didnt find it.

It's in the Fall from Heaven subfolder, along with lots of other good stuff about the mod:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=159377

Corlindale said:

It's in the Fall from Heaven subfolder, along with lots of other good stuff about the mod:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=159377

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thanks, Im horrible around forums, which is why my posts are long. If i can get it to work, i dont let go.

Kael said:

Uploading it right now.

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Fantastic. Where should I look for it?

puglover said:

What's wrong with a legendary hawk? I think its cool to have a hawk who valourously defends the hunter.

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I don't remember saying there was anything "wrong" with a valorous hawk. But seeing as a hawk has zero combat capability and has no experience points, there is exactly zero effect from the casting of the Valor spell. These small errors are what playtesters exist to catch. I reported a small glitch to the design team. It's their call if they feel the situation is "wrong", not mine.

QES If you are having your casters avoid all war zones you're really tying your own hands. Try buying a few Range skillups in combination with Fire and Death magic. You'll find there is no such thing as an 'ubercity' when it comes time to resist your mighy magical siege train. "Catapults? We dun need no steenkeeng catapults!

Unser Giftzwerg said:

QES If you are having your casters avoid all war zones you're really tying your own hands. Try buying a few Range skillups in combination with Fire and Death magic. You'll find there is no such thing as an 'ubercity' when it comes time to resist your mighy magical siege train. "Catapults? We dun need no steenkeeng catapults!

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Hm, i hadnt considered that. Still, i was trying to "play nice" I did have the fire sphere, but my others were nature, life, enchantment, earth..and i think dimension. I leveled Ubercities more quickly with an aunslaught of national units coupled with mryiad's of basics. I gotta say, i LOVE the Raider profile. ...I hadnt even coupled it with "conquest" but im sure that'd have been fun too.

Those little adepts take so long to level up (without arcane profile) i Dont use them in middeling conflicts...seems to risky, since if i lose one, i wont be able to get him back (at the same level) for a while.

-Qes

There's some good thoughts here about mana nodes. Needing, say, two Fire nodes to train one's casters with tier two Fire spells sounds appealing. Especially with the suggestion that the national Palace allows learning up to tier three skilla in the favored magic type. This would certainly add strategic decision-making and variety between civs.

This also indirectly helps alieviate a concern of mine with Death magic than the tier two Plague spell, as expressed upthread a couple-few pages. Basically, I found that spell to be so devistating to the enemy that I am afraid players will be tempted to head straight for the Death magic in just about every game they play. Even peaceful civs have to defend themselves. And nothing spells defense quite like the ability to attrit the enemy by 80% before they even cross the border.

But if you require a civ to invest heavilly in permanent Death nodes, that means they must give up some other magical options in order to get those deadly Plague casters. Or Fireballers, or whatever. As different magics are geared for different aspects (war, science, culture, movement, etc) players would have to make careful choices in their magic strategy.

But there are many inplications to such a change. For example, how would the AI handle this? All other resources are treated as an on/off toggle. Either you have access to the stuff or you don't. Can the AI be tought to count their mana nodes and make good choices? I've no idea, but I bet we all know someone who does...

QES said:

Hm, i hadnt considered that. Still, i was trying to "play nice" I did have the fire sphere, but my others were nature, life, enchantment, earth..and i think dimension. I leveled Ubercities more quickly with an aunslaught of national units coupled with mryiad's of basics. I gotta say, i LOVE the Raider profile. ...I hadnt even coupled it with "conquest" but im sure that'd have been fun too.

Those little adepts take so long to level up (without arcane profile) i Dont use them in middeling conflicts...seems to risky, since if i lose one, i wont be able to get him back (at the same level) for a while.

-Qes

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I am in the middle of only my 2nd game, no expert here but in my first game I didn't come close to losing a caster. They can move into range, cast, and move back into a well-protected tile, if the area is dangerous. In the meantime it's fireball firebal fireball fireball plague plague plague plague plage. Then send in your units (one at a time to limit the spread of disease) to wipe out the enemy units which should now be at about strength 1.3. Then one Cure Disease at the end of your turn, if needed, and yet another enemy stack has been utterly demolished.

You cast any fire you have first, because Fireball colatteral damage will not take an enemy below 50% strength. Plague colateral damage, however, will continue until the enemy unit dies.

The fireballs are not really needed. I built several because I knew from FfH1.0 they they were likely to be handy-dandy. I didn't know how Plague would work. But once I realized I had to use my fire combat first, I was never faced with a stack I had to fear. And you have to realize the AI was throwing Typhoid Mary, Baron Halfmoon, and other STR 8-9 heroes at me when my military tech limited me to Axemen and Rangers. (And Tigers. Tigers are great to kill wounded plague units that are in a third-party non-combatant civilization's territory. Animals do not need Open Borders in order to cross national borders. )

Now, fire spells are needed if you have to kill enemy ships. Plague has no effect on ships. But it will wound/kill the gound units in transport on those ships.

PS: Heh heh, I just noticed we both have made 18 posts here at this moment in time.

Unser Giftzwerg said:

I am in the middle of only my 2nd game, no expert here but in my first game I didn't come close to losing a caster. They can move into range, cast, and move back into a well-protected tile, if the area is dangerous. In the meantime it's fireball firebal fireball fireball plague plague plague plague plage. Then send in your units (one at a time to limit the spread of disease) to wipe out the enemy units which should now be at about strength 1.3. Then one Cure Disease at the end of your turn, if needed, and yet another enemy stack has been utterly demolished.

You cast any fire you have first, because Fireball colatteral damage will not take an enemy below 50% strength. Plague colateral damage, however, will continue until the enemy unit dies.

The fireballs are not really needed. I built several because I knew from FfH1.0 they they were likely to be handy-dandy. I didn't know how Plague would work. But once I realized I had to use my fire combat first, I was never faced with a stack I had to fear. And you have to realize the AI was throwing Typhoid Mary, Baron Halfmoon, and other STR 8-9 heroes at me when my military tech limited me to Axemen and Rangers. (And Tigers. Tigers are great to kill wounded plague units that are in a third-party non-combatant civilization's territory. Animals do not need Open Borders in order to cross national borders. )

Now, fire spells are needed if you have to kill enemy ships. Plague has no effect on ships. But it will wound/kill the gound units in transport on those ships.

PS: Heh heh, I just noticed we both have made 18 posts here at this moment in time.

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20.

yeah, but i didnt want to use Death Magic. I was Ranger/Elves. I had goodie-two-shoe stuff and i wanted to be defensive. Now, when i did go on the attack, i didnt bring my mages because i really didnt have any leveled up. I had a lot of handy-dandy elf scout/recon and national units. By the time i used my magic peple, the defending unit had 51 str STANDING. Fireballs arnt going to do much to that. My ENTS, of which i always was summing 3 or more, didnt do much to that. DRUIDS rock, btw. All my lands are green and foresty. Always.

But yeah, arcane peoples were awesome, but only as support.

Hello-
I think the point of my post was lost. I'm not poohing on religions in my city so much as I'm poohing on the fact that the agnostic civ is severly crutched financially insofaras they cannot found religions & therefore cannot benefit from extra money. Also they are handicapped in the happiness department that there are no temples built to control unruliness - again crippling finances. Scientific research is also stymied because the research slider has to be set o low to keep from losing cash.

All that is well & good - I chose to play a Godless leader, however why are the rest of the civs going to benefit from it thusly throwing it back in my face-those damned pious bastards! They're laughing at me! Infecting my lands with their religion & gaining an upper hand on me at my expense!

As I played other Civs in the past I've always wondered why the Grigori was always to the bottom of the rankings considering their abilty to save time & energy by not worrying about building religious buildings & units - I guess now I know - they're scientist are crippled because their coffers are empty & they're people are pissed! If that was the intent in developing an agnostic civ that's cool it's just more of a challenge - if it wasn't the intent than the Grigori need some more tweeking IMO.

Kisses,
Seamus

seamus75 said:

Hello-
I think the point of my post was lost. I'm not poohing on religions in my city so much as I'm poohing on the fact that the agnostic civ is severly crutched financially insofaras they cannot found religions & therefore cannot benefit from extra money. Also they are handicapped in the happiness department that there are no temples built to control unruliness - again crippling finances. Scientific research is also stymied because the research slider has to be set o low to keep from losing cash.

All that is well & good - I chose to play a Godless leader, however why are the rest of the civs going to benefit from it thusly throwing it back in my face-those damned pious bastards! They're laughing at me! Infecting my lands with their religion & gaining an upper hand on me at my expense!

As I played other Civs in the past I've always wondered why the Grigori was always to the bottom of the rankings considering their abilty to save time & energy by not worrying about building religious buildings & units - I guess now I know - they're scientist are crippled because their coffers are empty & they're people are pissed! If that was the intent in developing an agnostic civ that's cool it's just more of a challenge - if it wasn't the intent than the Grigori need some more tweeking IMO.

Kisses,
Seamus

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Try a different playing style. Did you turtle? Or did you go on the offensive. If you've got force, use it and nations should do as you want. Plus there's nothing quite like taking the enemies precious holy city...and razing it to the ground. Granted, it wont make you political friends, but it'll feel "righteous". Libraries give happiness, so do trade goods, so do all those little buildings other than the temple and religion. Avoid the same routine and see how you do.

Hello-

I hate to sound like an "answer for eveything" kinda guy but your good advice is hard to implement when your research is so far behind as to make you the stone age joke of the game. I'm currently fighting a war with my t1 warriors vs. their mercenaries and axemen as my research is capped at 30% & I've yet to discover any of the necessary techs. All of your suggestions are good - I would relish destroying the OO Holy city just to keep them from profiting off my cities, but alas the city is guarded with archers and adepts (units I've yet to discover).

Things my start looking up as I have FINALLY researched the trade tech & switched civics - hopefully I'll get some meat in my coffers so I can trim the fat off of their cities.

PS - my point in all this is not to vent or complain about the sorry state of my game. My point is to say that the Grigori may need some balancing to make them comparable with the other civs.

See ya,
Seamus