Tech Tree Discussion

strategyonly · Apr 15, 2012

Sgtslick said:
can't beleive your adding more prehistoric techs, its already so boring. It needs to be faster definately not slower!

You got to be kidding me, this is a great era, how do you think the actual people of those ages felt. No restrooms, no toilet paper, no running water, no doctors, no dentist, no chopping utensils till later, no lights, no fire, nothing.. how do you think they felt again, rather horrible, i guess!!!!

Koshling said:
I'd say we should split prehistoric (with these changes) into two eras, so that anyone who doesn't want this even-more-extended early game can start in the second era, without having to miss out on the original prehistoric hunting-oriented fun by going all the way to ancient.

I was already planning that, because Hydro asked me to re-do all the Era tech tree "again." By adding more open spaces but this is a HUGE task by itself and will take me approximately two months if not more.

Wanted to add

Paleolithic
Mesolithic
Neolithic

but again this will be a chore by itself just to do :crazyeye:

hotrodlincoln · Apr 15, 2012

I had a thought last night. Some people might not feel this is entirely feasible, but i'll suggest it anyway and see what the community's thoughts are. What if, rather than having religions founded on a certain tech such as monotheism, what if monotheism was simply the prerequisite for a tech called "Judaism"?

Currently, we have the situation in the ancient era where one tech right after the other founds a religion. Unless the AI is out-teching you, it's very easy to end up with Ngaiism, Mesopotamianism, Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, Judaism, Tengriism, and Buddhism without even particularly trying. Putting the religions on dead end technologies who's only purpose is to found the religion in question would solve the issue of the tech-leader ending up with hundreds of religions he/she doesn't want. Some of these religion slingshots don't even make any particular sense, such as Zoroastrianism being a prerequisite for Hinduism, despite Hinduism predating Zoroastrianism in real life. It's also very difficult to found Buddhism without inadvertently founding Judaism, a religion which is completely unrelated in any way to Buddhism.

This might also help with the religion spam strategy, wherein a player founds every single religion they can get their hands on in order to build tons of monasteries, by at least slowing down their religion acquisition somewhat.

Just some thoughts.

Dancing Hoskuld · Apr 15, 2012

hotrodlincoln said:
I had a thought last night. Some people might not feel this is entirely feasible, but i'll suggest it anyway and see what the community's thoughts are. What if, rather than having religions founded on a certain tech such as monotheism, what if monotheism was simply the prerequisite for a tech called "Judaism"?

Currently, we have the situation in the ancient era where one tech right after the other founds a religion. Unless the AI is out-teching you, it's very easy to end up with Ngaiism, Mesopotamianism, Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, Judaism, Tengriism, and Buddhism without even particularly trying. Putting the religions on dead end technologies who's only purpose is to found the religion in question would solve the issue of the tech-leader ending up with hundreds of religions he/she doesn't want. Some of these religion slingshots don't even make any particular sense, such as Zoroastrianism being a prerequisite for Hinduism, despite Hinduism predating Zoroastrianism in real life. It's also very difficult to found Buddhism without inadvertently founding Judaism, a religion which is completely unrelated in any way to Buddhism.

This might also help with the religion spam strategy, wherein a player founds every single religion they can get their hands on in order to build tons of monasteries, by at least slowing down their religion acquisition somewhat.

Just some thoughts.

This should be on the religion discussion thread. It has been suggested before, I dislike it because it does not stop the leader still grabbing all the religions. All it does is help those players who only want one particular religion in a particular game succed at that task.

hotrodlincoln · Apr 15, 2012

Dancing Hoskuld said:
This should be on the religion discussion thread. It has been suggested before, I dislike it because it does not stop the leader still grabbing all the religions. All it does is help those players who only want one particular religion in a particular game succed at that task.

As long as the AI was bothering to research the dead-end religious techs, I don't think it will be an issue. On the Rise Of Mankind/A New Dawn mod, Dualism and Ceremonial Burial were the prerequisites for Zoroastrianism and Kemetism, respectively. 9 times out of 10, the AI beat me to these unless I beelined them. Both of these techs were dead end techs. One civ might still be able to grab up a couple of religions, sure, but I think it would stop the situation of seeing one civ found 11 religions. If a player wants to found every last religion, they still can, it will just require more sacrifice on their end. Most of these religions are founded on technologies that are either useful as it is, or lead to useful technologies, which is another part of why the religion spam strategy is so valid. It's all benefit, no sacrifice.

Edit: Should I repost this on the religion thread?

Hydromancerx · Apr 15, 2012

Koshling said:
I'd say we should split prehistoric (with these changes) into two eras, so that anyone who doesn't want this even-more-extended early game can start in the second era, without having to miss out on the original prehistoric hunting-oriented fun by going all the way to ancient.

Where would it even be separated at? I think its fine as one big Prehistoric Era.

Dancing Hoskuld · Apr 15, 2012

hotrodlincoln said:
Edit: Should I repost this on the religion thread?

Yes, you should. If you can suggest changes to where in the tech tree some of the religions are being founded to stop them being one after the other I am sure Joseph_II would support you.

the more specific you can be the more likely there will be discussion and the increased likelihood of change.

Koshling · Apr 15, 2012

I presume the new earlybtechs (scraping, piercing, etc.) are avwork in progress, and will be getting some associated buildings or units or reveals or something? It's just that pure filler techs are rather boring (just checking - I know this has only just gone in, so is likely very unfinished)

Dancing Hoskuld · Apr 15, 2012

Koshling said:
I presume the new earlybtechs (scraping, piercing, etc.) are avwork in progress, and will be getting some associated buildings or units or reveals or something? It's just that pure filler techs are rather boring (just checking - I know this has only just gone in, so is likely very unfinished)

Some of them are intended to provide special things for the nomad units like promotions and upgrades.

Hydromancerx · Apr 15, 2012

@Dancing Hoskuld

What do you have for the tech path of Hafting in RoH? I would like to add the Binding and Rawhide Working but I am unsure how you have them set up. Seeing how you did it geives me a better idea on how to add it to C2C's tree.

Azurian · Apr 16, 2012

@Dancing Hoskuld

I downloaded the Sketch of the ROH tech Tree and most of the Techs are included but reworded in C2C.

I did love some techs C2C doesnt have including Papyrus, Rope, and Postal System.

(I got the Tech Tree Sketch for RoH from this quote)

johny smith said:
I am putting this sketch of a tech tree up if anyone needs some ideas, and if I reboot this I will have it for reference.

BlueGenie · Apr 16, 2012

Really? Fire Making is removed? It's still in the XML files but not in the game.
This means no Fire Pit and no Charcoal Ever, as that's the tech revealing Charcoal.
Maybe that should be changed?

Cheers

Hydromancerx · Apr 16, 2012

BlueGenie said:
Really? Fire Making is removed? It's still in the XML files but not in the game.
This means no Fire Pit and no Charcoal Ever, as that's the tech revealing Charcoal.
Maybe that should be changed?

Cheers

No its still there. I was confused too.

BlueGenie · Apr 16, 2012

Well, I couldn't find it in the Tech Tree but it's in the Civopedia. Slash and Burn tech doesn't seem to require it either, even though it states that it does. In fact all techs that needed Fire Making before now require Controlled Fire instead and I'm unable to plot any path where Fire Making is researched. Unless it's hidden under Carpentry, of course.

Cheers

strategyonly · Apr 16, 2012

BlueGenie said:
Well, I couldn't find it in the Tech Tree but it's in the Civopedia. Slash and Burn tech doesn't seem to require it either, even though it states that it does. In fact all techs that needed Fire Making before now require Controlled Fire instead and I'm unable to plot any path where Fire Making is researched. Unless it's hidden under Carpentry, of course.

Cheers

Its actual name is, The_Fire, does that help?

Hydromancerx · Apr 16, 2012

According to the online spreadsheet tech tree Fire Making should be a X13 Y1.

BlueGenie · Apr 16, 2012

Above Carpentry (13;3) in my game is empty. I've looked through the whole Prehistoric Technology Advisor in game and still can't find it, even looked at alternate names.

Sorry for coming across a bit hard on this one, it's been a bad day at home and I'm not as calm as I usually am.
I'm sure this is just a transition and it'll come back, and I am on the SVN after all, so am prepared for some bugs and misses. Merely wanted to point out that Fire Making and Charcoal were removed from the game until it was fixed. Looking at the post later I saw how, ehm, strongly it came across, that was not my intention.

Cheers

rightfuture · Apr 16, 2012

strategyonly said:
Wanted to add

Paleolithic
Mesolithic
Neolithic

I vote a big Yes!!!
Prehistory from tribes isn't just a single period of time. It rolls out like the other ages do.
It is worth the time to develop.

Once again I also vote for a receding ice age using the FFH code, with proper water ocean level adjustments (accurate coastlines which changed noticeable since 12,000 b.c.), based on the hard to find ocean level maps, leading to land bridges, altered continents (like Australia, Southeast Asia, the flooded North Sea) and covered lost civilizations like Malta, the Indian sunken temples, the flooded Black sea event, Egyptian sunken cities, etc. It it an accurate and exciting way to start off games of C2C from a single nomadic tribe migrating to glacial free areas, following herds of animals to survive. I think it is worth the development time!

Links to some prehistoric coastline maps and proof

http://ossfoundation.us/projects/environment/global-warming/sea-level-rise

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlkik/ihm/ancient.htm
Possibly still not an island, Ireland begins to take shape about 12,000 to 11,000 radiocarbon years ago (perhaps 11500 to 10000 BC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_Sunda_and_Sahul.png
http://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=2146412048
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doggerland
http://www.usefulcharts.com/history/prehistoric-timeline.html
http://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=2146412205
http://www.sciencephoto.com/media/101034/enlarge
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outburst_flood
rare Black Sea flood type events please
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_hypothesis
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1697038.stm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klRbcEnLPbU&feature=player_embedded
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geomorphology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistory_of_Australia
http://www.newswise.com/articles/ar...e-age-hominins-adaptability-to-climate-change
http://www.iafi.org/store_new.html
interesting Florida map
http://volusia.org/history/prehistory.htm
http://essayweb.net/history/ancient/prehistory.shtml
interesting human migration map
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/143/3606/574.abstract
http://www.nio.org/index/option/com_nomenu/task/show/tid/85/sid/92/id/74

There is more to terrain changes in recent history than most people are aware of. Love to see these changes modeled a little bit for earth and random maps. It would make that the prehistoric eras more interesting.

Dancing Hoskuld · Apr 16, 2012

OK, you are still not quite understanding what I am trying to say

Stone Tools in old C2C = RoH hard/Soft precussion + chopping + scraping + piercing

You don't need both. So remove Stone Tools and move all the bits in it to one of the four (drop soft as while a real tech for game purposes it is a linking tech).

Should I give detail or just do it?

strategyonly · Apr 16, 2012

Dancing Hoskuld said:
OK, you are still not quite understanding what I am trying to say

Stone Tools in old C2C = RoH hard/Soft precussion + chopping + scraping + piercing

You don't need both. So remove Stone Tools and move all the bits in it to one of the four (drop soft as while a real tech for game purposes it is a linking tech).

Should I give detail or just do it?

I am not understanding what is going on here, you guys, come on now, lets get together and play nice

Go ahead, you know, I trust you DH!!

Hydromancerx · Apr 16, 2012

Dancing Hoskuld said:
OK, you are still not quite understanding what I am trying to say

Stone Tools in old C2C = RoH hard/Soft precussion + chopping + scraping + piercing

You don't need both. So remove Stone Tools and move all the bits in it to one of the four (drop soft as while a real tech for game purposes it is a linking tech).

Should I give detail or just do it?

"Stone Tools" (C2C) was renamed to "Hard-Hammer Percussion". The reason for just a re-name and not a new tag is that so many buildings and improvements depended upon TECH_STONE_TOOLS that it was easier just to re-name the tech.

So now we have 5 techs ....

1. Hard-Hammer Percussion (TECH_STONE_TOOLS)
2. Soft-Hammer Percussion (TECH_SOFT_HAMMER_PERCUSSION)
3. Chopping (TECH_CHOPPING)
4. Scraping (TECH_SCRAPING)
5. Piercing (TECH_PIERCING)

What's the problem? :confused:

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