The Road to War - Ultimate Edition!

What you mean by DCM off? You deactivate all options one per one? I have tried that and don't remember the AI was better. There's some DCM options I enjoy so usually I deactivate only the stack attack and sometimes Battle effects when I get bored of micromanagement in previous game I played. :) I'll try again turn off all but in fact I like the AI and it even learned me many things. :)


Like you said there are some bugs in DCM, especially with artillery getting lots of free shots, and since Dale's finished his work for Civ4 the only way to deal with this is to turn many of those options off. :( Good news is that I personally prefer playing with standard Civ4 rules. :)
 
Nope, AI still in the habit of keeping huge stacks doing nothing in its cities. I give up. Uninstalling ....
 
I am trying the global map 1936 and research time are very long it hurts. Is it just me? Is there some tricks I didn't caught?

I'm playing France and had do some nasty tricks like put all town in research just to discover laboratory. But I'll be totally owned when war will start, I already lost the game I bet.

No I didn't use a high level of difficulty, well Monarch perhaps I should have try Noble but Monarch, usually I play only at Emperor or higher but in few mod. I don't remember research had such a big difference between Noble and Monarch. Also due to extensive possibilities of resources exchange that's not town health or happiness that limit towns development.
I check by starting a Global 36 game in Noble and Monarch well the difference isn't so important. In Noble with Research at 80% without to change anything for the starting position, 65 turns to find the older research.

That is huge, I don't understand how anybody can play that. Well I should better leave the global map and go back to other maps.

In the game I tried I couldn't even find a second technology before the war started!
 
So just to check the research time, I started in Noble a Global Assault 1936. Didn't change anything from starting position. For research at 80%, to find 1st technology:
- Germany (still with only 5 towns so will roughly raise of 50%) : 21 Turns
- Japan : 21 turns
- Italy : 27 turns
- UK : 28 turns
- Australia : 39 turns
- USA : 42 turns
- China : 57 turns
- France : 65 turns

Cough cough, well I understand some balance should be find even if unrealistic but:
- In open mode that's totally weird.
- In any mode that's really too much, ton of sweet to not even be able to find 2 technology, couldn't even find tanks or planes that was available a long time before the war.
- If balance should be find better make it support more to country like Australia with zero custom units and that nobody will ever play.

One quote, just before war Italy had less than 15% of car industrial capacity of France.
 
For research at 80%, to find 1st technology:
- Germany (still with only 5 towns so will roughly raise of 50%) : 21 Turns
- Japan : 21 turns
- Italy : 27 turns
- UK : 28 turns
- Australia : 39 turns
- USA : 42 turns
- China : 57 turns
- France : 65 turns

Gamewise, this doesn't seem that out of proportion to me for 1936. Keep in mind the expected growth of cities over the next few years, without any war affecting anything. Germany, Italy and Japan won't expand much population-wise at all (rather, most of their cities reach a limit imposed by borders and surrounding cities overlapping), but UK will definitely benefit from the research in all those big cities in Africa and India, as will the USA when its cities continue to grow to capacity.

Thus far I find that I have advanced enough by 1940 or so that I have middle-level techs for most units. I wouldn't expect to have A-bombs and nuclear reactors until the mid- to late-40s anyway, and not everyone should be able to research them unless they prioritize it (to the detriment of other research and production).

One tradeoff I notice with Open Mode is that there is no tech trading and no team-research to speed things along. Obviously if it is FFA then no one is likely to replicate the tech path followed in WWII very closely. Historically the USA gets credit for the atom bomb, so as we play the scenario we expect to see the same, but realistically it effectively came about through the team-research by all of the allies not just one country (heck, it even came about through scientists who defected/escaped Germany if I recall correctly, which doesn't happen in RTW).
 
Germany, Italy, and Japan have to spend more money on troops, being the aggressors against so many simultaneous foes, right? Maybe it's okay for their research times to be low, cause they won't be able to afford 80% research very often! And can UK really afford 80% with their maintenance of their wide empire? (I haven't played UK enough to know) So maybe these tech times are balanced. Playing Global as Germany on Deity, 65 turns for the first tech doesn't sound too terrible (I almost never can afford anything near 80% research), though I don't know what a usual tech time would be for Noble.

My guess is, if you play it through (on open play) making about the same decisions (and mistakes, intentionally) as were made historically, if your tech lines up pretty reasonably with history, it's balanced ok. But then, I haven't had much luck getting the AI to behave even loosely historically on Open Play, but you might be able to approximate.
 
Othamar and VeteranLurker, thanks for your answer. But I think you didn't notice a thing: UK starts with 27 turns it's not far from the 21 turns of Germany, France is 65 turns! And ok USA have a better improvement potential but not France.

Anyway, play France in Global Assault up to the beginning of the 39 war.

Good luck guy, at Monarch I didn't even found 2 technologies, ie I was very far to have the technologies you have with the maps that start in 39. But that's fine that you try at Noble, and that done we continue the debate. :)
 
Technology cost was tripled ages ago because everyone was . .. .. .. .. .ing that they were finishing the tech tree in 1942.

Deal with it. :)
 
Once upon a time, I think I recall Dale saying the scenario was balanced for Noble level.

France is one country I've not tried in Global yet. I wonder if they are initially handicapped to replicate their historical result? That sets them up realistically for Historical/Random Mode, but not so well for Open Mode. Still, with some African and Asian colonies, perhaps France could catch up some after a while (though not as well as UK, USA or probably even Italy). China is similarly restricted -- many Chinese cities are nice but there is nowhere to expand to so they will hit a wall similar to Japan/Germany.
 
Well this game is really meant to be played in one of the historical modes with team research. Honestly though I think that the inclusion of Open Play, regional and global maps etc all in one package means that too many compromises are required. Personally I'll be looking for seperate installs for the Global and regional maps to optimise things like movement, strength etc. Even the different different start dates could be better optimised if one didn't also have to consider the other options, this is particularly true when considering research. Dale has done a great job in creating a mod with something for everybody and mod-mod that will be based on RtW are going to be great for those of us anal enough to keep whinging about its shortcoming in here.

Dan
 
You all make me laugh and you Dale too. Play the Global Assault 1936 as France instead of looking the computer do it for you and then come debate with me about that. :D

Until that no answer are relevant, looking at a computer playing isn't testing a the gameplay of a game.

EDIT: Ok otherwise how I can rebalance that myself?
 
Well, since it IS a historically based scenario, I personally do not expect each country to be able to dominate in all areas just because a human is playing them (unlike say regular CIV BTS where each civ starts on relatively equal footing and so has equal potential to excell if managed properly). Clearly, USSR/Germany/UK/USA have significant advantages that the other countries do not, but it is still challenging. If I play China in RTW Open Mode, I expect a much more serious challenge -- if more than one neighbor among Japan/USSR/UK DoWs me at the same time, I'm probably toast before very long. If I play Austria or Czechoslovakia, I expect to have to fight tooth-and-nail with half-a-dozen neighbors just to carve out some space, only to be slaughtered by either Germany or Italy or maybe USSR if I last long enough. Research? Czech scientists likely better concentrate only on bomb shelters.

I don't know enough history to know if France is unrealistically underpowered in UE 1.1. We *do* know France got steamrolled in short order in WWII, and at least some of the reason for that was not being at the same level of preparedness as Germany or UK. Isn't the challenge of a game like RTW to see if you can do better than your historical counterparts did, given similar circumstances? I've not played the Europe scenario in many months, but back then I played as each of the major powers except for USA, as well as Finland and Sweden, and all were playable but not identical in their prospects. I'll give France a try in Global and see what I think. But I already know that I don't expect their military units to stack up well against Germany. Given that we do not know what France would have been capable of say if it had not been conquered by 1944, anything beyond where each country was in 1936 is speculation. The question for me becomes one of playability. Is it hopeless to play as France? Presumably not as hopeless as Austria or Czechoslovakia. Is there a game balance issue for France between Global and Europe? Dunno.
 
...to be great for those of us anal enough to keep whinging about its shortcoming in here.
Dan
Lol, thank you Dan! Can you post a more pointless and ridiculous answer? I don't think so but common try I bet you'll surprise me. Anyway you just show you ain't better than the young kid bothering here.
 
Well, since it IS a historically based scenario, I personally do not expect each country to be able to dominate in all areas just because a human is playing them (unlike say regular CIV BTS where each civ starts on relatively equal footing and so has equal potential to excell if managed properly). Clearly, USSR/Germany/UK/USA have significant advantages that the other countries do not, but it is still challenging.
UK? If UK wasn't an island you can easily guess it would have fallen quite easily to Germans.

Anyway I agree that some country should be more or less easy to play and that's why I choose France.

But the point isn't here. If it's just to win the game, with no technology acquired I can win the game.

It's just that you spend more than 3 years with no research. As I said I found 1 technology but I bet you won't do better in Noble level because the research rate isn't much better.

Is there a game balance issue for France between Global and Europe? Dunno.
Between Global 1936 and Europe 1939, yes in 1939 it's more than ok, the removal of any artillery unit for France plus much stronger air of Germany and Italy make the task harder but Germany infantry are less over powerful, the French units are strong and maginot bunkers help a lot so overall in Europe 1939 France is fun to play. Also there's no research problem, it's true that soon UK join and improve research rate.

What's weird is that I cannot put my hand on where is the difference between research rate. For example UK have a research rate of 60% IE if 100 research points are product only 60% go in research done. I couldn't find that in xml for civilizations, leaders, traits or civics.

I wonder where this crap is hidden I would change to make a setup for me only and for global and when playing France, I just hate the current null research France got between 36 and 39.
 
Prob with mod or just me playing?

Ok, here is the info: Playing as Germany on Monarch(?) 1936. When war starts I cannot capture Krakow in Poland. When I try (three different times with big stacks) ALL my army gets destroyed and Polish army lives in Krakow relatively unscathed. I think it has something to do with 'artillery has gained opportunity to make an attack' and my five stacks literally disappear! We're talkin' stack of Pz IV's and Adv Infantry AND artillery. And this is after pummeling Krakow with 15 Ju 87 planes and a couple of Me 109's. Please advise.


Other probs i've noticed:

1 Spain Nationalist's gets destroyed (almost completely) by 1939.
2 Italy unable to take Albania by Nov 1939. (maybe due to same issue I have with Krakow)


Thanks to Dale and everyone involved for a fun mod. Need some clarity on these issues.
 
Prob with mod or just me playing?

Ok, here is the info: Playing as Germany on Monarch(?) 1936. When war starts I cannot capture Krakow in Poland. When I try (three different times with big stacks) ALL my army gets destroyed and Polish army lives in Krakow relatively unscathed. I think it has something to do with 'artillery has gained opportunity to make an attack' and my five stacks literally disappear! We're talkin' stack of Pz IV's and Adv Infantry AND artillery. And this is after pummeling Krakow with 15 Ju 87 planes and a couple of Me 109's. Please advise.


Other probs i've noticed:

1 Spain Nationalist's gets destroyed (almost completely) by 1939.
2 Italy unable to take Albania by Nov 1939. (maybe due to same issue I have with Krakow)


Thanks to Dale and everyone involved for a fun mod. Need some clarity on these issues.



You need to go into the globalassetsalt.xml file that Dale posted for me on a previous page and turn off most of the DCM features except ranged bombard. DCM is buggy as hell and the AI can't cope with it.
 
Actually this would be the case where ottoman4u hasn't combined the right units.

You need to air attack your targets to weaken them, and use you own artillery to bombard them down.

Also Horizons, instead of making complaints why not make some positive suggestions instead? Maybe then people will respect your comments more. :)

Also, wouldn't you think since the Polish AI is fortifying artillery in Krakow to help defend it's city, is proof enough that the AI IS USING THE CONCEPT TO ITS BEST USE???? Considering, that's what you use this concept for, providing artillery defense on approaching attackers.

Makes you comment about the AI not being able to use DCM concepts pretty stupid eh? :)
 
Here is the situation Dale. Removing DCM improves the German invasion of Poland and there's no question about that, see for yourself. Poland is carved up between USSR and Germany within 4 - 5 turns. That is not so with DCM enabled.

However, when France sends a large stack into Germany, then the German AI keeps its stacks in its cities, fortified. It does not send out its artillery to weaken that stack, or mop up that stack, and thence go on to press home the advantage. What it does is send little groups of units to attack Metz, consequently it loses enormous numbers of units all the while the French stack sits in German land not doing very much. This is with DCM disabled.

In other words we have the greatest mod ever made for a Civilization game, with an AI that can no longer even perform rudimentary tasks. That is the only reason I'm tearing my hair out. Beta 2 AI wasn't perfect but I preferred it over UE. Please, if you can have made changes to UE that caused the AI to become slightly worse then it must be possible to reverse those changes to make it slightly better.

All I want to find out is how I can do this myself. I am eager to learn. :)
 
Brainwave! Maybe reducing the strength of France's units would help! If you remember, France didn't perform particularly well in the war. :D


Thus my proposed formula would be: take out DCM, or at least the opp/fire, stacked attack components, and change the unit strengths, I have no idea why these were changed so extensively with so little testing.
 
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