SGOTM 13 - Gypsy Kings

unfortunately we are not playing them the same. Which is why we must decide either a settler in FH after it whips a workboat and builds the pyramids for some time or a 2nd whipped workboat after it whips a workboat and builds the pyramids for some time.

These paths also result in different tile usage plans.

I am a little scared that we scared Thorn away (and possibly Griff too).
 
I tried all three PC plans floating around - R1's plan of supplying both WBs, my plan of building one and getting one from SM, and bc's plan of building one and getting one from BF. I compared them all at T160 by their :hammers: on a subsequent wonder build.

In each case, it was best if they grow as fast as they can to size 2 (perhaps after maxing hammers to get out their own first WB, as applicable), whipping the lighthouse ASAP (contrary to my assertion last night!), regrowing working max nets then PM, 2-whipping granary (perhaps after switching to the next build for a couple of turns), and regrowing fast. In no case did they want their second WB delivered before T139. So it is definitely wrong for us to rush a second WB over to PC.

bc's plan involving BF supplying the second WB and PC starting working the unimproved Phill was slightly superior to my suggestion, and wanted its second WB on T144 - no delay.

R1's plan where both WBs get supplied from elsewhere was best of all, of course, but it was only 28 base :hammers: ahead of the bc-BF plan.

Conclusion
PC getting settled without a WB ready and building its own WB is fine so long as other places are doing useful things. There's no rush to supply a second WB to PC - it has a lighthouse to whip and regrow from, first.
 
I apologize if my tone got adversarial...that was not my intention. :(

Sure, no problem. I could see my own post was making a lot of counter-arguments and I wanted to be sure we were continuing to have a fruitful discussion without anybody getting frustrated with anybody else :)

I think I just got a bit confused about the goals we were shooting for possibly. I have been working on the assumption that we wanted cities to be able start their own LH's out of the gate so we could whip those ASAP in order to gt to the second build ASAP and make the seafood resource = max value at the same time. In order to do that, the WB's need to come from somewhere else.

Everywhere wants fast lighthouses, so everywhere wants fast workboats, but it does not follow that they can't settle earlier then they can have workboats available. Because our best settler production and our best workboat production come from different cities with different base rates, production will be asynchronous. However, so long as those production sites are all doing reasonably maximal work, we can't lose by getting the side cities settled ASAP.

We are splitting hairs here - all the test games we've been playing are good in the abstract.


From what I see know...my earlier test where I plant cities 4/5/6 on T 120/129/138 seems even better, and it was NOT optimized as best it could be for a number of reasons.

I also ran another test last night that went the opposite direction a little. I settled Copper a tad later, but all 3 had better tile use sooner.

Maybe we just need to define a little better EXACTLY the short term goal we are trying to hit!

Goals
  1. Settle good at least five more decent city sites ASAP
  2. Arrange for workboat support ASAP
  3. Arrange for worker support ASAP
  4. Whip lighthouses and then granaries ASAP, unless this city is supplying workboats as above
  5. Profit!

Also...here is the T108 test save altered slightly to allow English trade routes when we open borders. I just added a few land tiles to make a route.

Thanks, I've been meaning to do that!
 
I think we are close for sure now....

Here is another test game with the spreadsheet here...https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?hl=en&key=tlVKcqXERORGdB6P3G4Jo5g&authkey=CLnnoJwO&hl=en#gid=0

and the save file here...

OK, so this game you've tried whipping a fast WB out of FH, and then a lighthouse just a few turns later. It does sound plausible, but the lighthouse for faster growth and an extra whip-:mad: while we're already stretched for :) in that city sounds doubtful.

What does the lighthouse get us? We get +1:food: from T113-118, and then +1:hammers: T119-123 on the worker overflowing to the Pyramids. Then we're back to +1:food: T124-131. Then we're :mad: with a net of -1:food: T132-138. Then our ex-:mad: dude can work a coast, so we're +2:food: for T139-142, and back to +1:food: for T143. Then +1:hammers: on the next worker for T144-T147. So we got +16:food:8:hammers: over those 36 turns. I guess that's about one population point.

The third worker isn't all that great for us yet. He'll be good once we have IW and are continuing to expand somewhere, but right now in your save there's only 23 more turns of work for our three guys. CC is going to put out a settler in 2 turns, but Crabby has only got one tile to improve. If we we trade for IW, then there's work for a while down at BF - but the three side workshops there are not usable for a while. We're also not really using those workshops around SM for quite a while yet (e.g. about T190 we switch to Caste). So having put the resources of the third worker into another settler sounds like a better deal to me.
 
I think I've put in all the time I can reasonably give to analysing more test games. bc's fast-expansion plan, with some tile optimizations per my last PDF, and various strategy improvements for the side cities per discussion seems to meet the strategic objectives of expanding fast while giving good play on the Pyramids, Great Library and something else. R1's provided some good fuel for discussion, and his test games have all been sound positions, but in my view the differences haven't provided enough benefit to overcome the slower settling rate.
 
I'm actually thinking the parthenon in either Bronzed Fish or Paired Clams will be more profitable than Moai 1st. Plus there is a chance we lose the race to Parthenon where as Moai can be built later (or milked for failure gold as we see fit.)

--failure gold from wonders that are built with production bonuses
If we partially build Moai in several cities then when we finally complete it in a city we get all those hammers invested in other cities converted to gold (basically allowing us to build wealth with a free +100% modifier). The limitation is we have to take turns building it because only 1 city at a time can build it.

This is less desirable to do with wonders that we actually want and can take advantage of their benefits. The Parthenon could give us 11 :gp: a turn in the capital which amounts to ~33 :science: per turn. Not bad considering its cost 600 hammers before the marble discount. Lifetime benefit is a minimum of 80 turns *33 :science: or ~2640 :science: (The benefit is obviously greater if we have more than 1 city producing GS for us.

Fail gold is a nice idea, but we're so stressed for hammers that I can't see anywhere in the short term that might be able to afford it. We need workboats, triremes, galleys, lighthouses, granaries and courthouses over the next 90 turns...
 
I think I've put in all the time I can reasonably give to analysing more test games. bc's fast-expansion plan, with some tile optimizations per my last PDF, and various strategy improvements for the side cities per discussion seems to meet the strategic objectives of expanding fast while giving good play on the Pyramids, Great Library and something else. R1's provided some good fuel for discussion, and his test games have all been sound positions, but in my view the differences haven't provided enough benefit to overcome the slower settling rate.

I agree.

Fail gold is a nice idea, but we're so stressed for hammers that I can't see anywhere in the short term that might be able to afford it. We need workboats, triremes, galleys, lighthouses, granaries and courthouses over the next 90 turns...
Something to keep in mind I think. With the limited hammers I can see how this strategy won't be very useful, but a 2 whip max OF of a worker could be worth ~100 gold, something to look at if we do manage to have a bit of extra time in slavery for some cities.

re: spreadsheet
CCP 0.2.2 I was looking the optimizations and noticed that you have the healthy cap at 5 for CC, but isn't it 6? (we have access to fish now perhaps?)
 
I just started a test game this morning playing by the latest recommendations by mabraham, I should be able to finish and post the results ~11 hours from now.

I hope this will help demonstrate the strength of those recommendations. I hope this will get us moving again, as I think this prolonged testing phase may have lost some of our momentum. It is a bit hard to keep enthusiastic about the game if we do have really long delays between turns.
 
The reason I looked at inserting a Lighthouse in FH was two fold. I was having trouble getting it to regrow as fast as I wanted it to, and the extra food when building workers/settlers would get converted to hammers. Also, I noticed when Piggery was planted, the food from the lighthouse was almost required to keep FH stable.

The reason for the 3rd worker...I am sure we will be able to trade for some useful worker techs, and once Crabby gets planted, there will be forests to chop there for sure. Now, it may be a bit early, and could easily have been a settler to help speed the expansion.

If we agree that fastest city planting is our goal for the next 10-50 turns, then I think we have a basic framework in place. Use our best tiles all the time and 3 pop whip the settlers in CC as fast as possible. Get 1 additional settler out of FH along with the second worker.
 
Could we narrow down the discussion to the next 10-12 turns?
If both Ron and bcool are playing these turns the same, then do we have a concensus?

A little input on Macro strategy from you, Thorn and Griff might go a long way in helping us get a clearer picture also!

I think we have decided to just push out as many cities as we can over the next 1-50 turns. Is there ANY reason why any of the 3 of you think this is a BAD idea?
 
In no case did they want their second WB delivered before T139....speaking about 2 Clams....
This is not totally true...in one of my tests, 2 Clams grew to size 2 on T129 and worked 2 nets, grew to size 3 on T135 and added Mine and grew to size 4 on T144 and added WS. It built a LH straight through with no whip, whipped the Granary on T147 and was ready for next build on T148 and would be our 3rd largest city for the foreseeable future with a base of 7:hammers:.
 
...
I am a little scared that we scared Thorn away (and possibly Griff too).
Not scared, just a little bit of RL interference lately (can't speak for Thorn :scared: ). I have been keeping up with the team thread.

...
Goals
  1. Settle good at least five more decent city sites ASAP
  2. Arrange for workboat support ASAP
  3. Arrange for worker support ASAP
  4. Whip lighthouses and then granaries ASAP, unless this city is supplying workboats as above
  5. Profit!
...
I think we have at least 5 decent city site already, don't we? Guesstimate on founding order...
  1. Two Clam site
  2. Marble site
  3. Copper site (needs IW to be viable, & maybe another Worker)
  4. Crab Cake site or Pork Barrel site
  5. Pork Barrel site or Crab Cake site
No more than one of these sites will be founded during Thorn's upcoming turn set, I wouldn't think.

After FH whips its current WB ("Magellan"), the next few will most likely come out of Stone Mountain, won't they? I see SM finishing its Monument, building 2 WBs (one for the next city to be founded (Two Clams?) & one for itself), and then perhaps finishing its Granary via a 2-pop whip, with the overflow going into another WB or two.

I liked the idea of FH whipping a Worker or two (as needed) onto the Pyramids build, with most of the Settlers ducking in from CC while it builds Forge>Library>Great Library.

EDIT: cross-post with R1!
 
A little input on Macro strategy from you, Thorn and Griff might go a long way in helping us get a clearer picture also!

I think we have decided to just push out as many cities as we can over the next 1-50 turns. Is there ANY reason why any of the 3 of you think this is a BAD idea?
Not as long as we're careful not to crash the Economy too badly. We're already having to employ binary research quite a bit. But we shouldn't have to worry too much for this next turn set.
 
Micro feedback in dark green.
Okay, here's my rough draft PPP. It's not complete and need mega feedback! :D I will update this post as changes are made.

PPP Turn 108 to Turn 122

Diplomacy
Sign Open Borders treaty with Vicky
Yes, and if she doesn't have anything good to trade for, consider gifting her a surplus Clam for the + diplomatic points!

Research
Start Aesthetics
Literature
Agree with bc that you'll probably need to spend most of your turn set at 0% Science, so switch research to Aesthetics (the actual save should still be on Mathematics) and keep an eye on the binary research each turn. If you do get Aesthetics finished, I think Literature is correct for the next tech.

Civics Changes
None

City Builds

Clam Chowder

1. Forge
2. Library

Fish Hills

1. Workboat
2. Lighthouse
Hmmm... I think :think: FH whips WB "Magellan" right away & works the two mines & its Fish at size 3 post whip. CC then works the 3 Clams & the grass forest on the western island, picks up the Corn Farm at Size 5, and at size 6 switches to a Settler, and then does a 3-pop whip of the Settler when able. Does this sound correct to everyone?

Stone Mountain

1. Monument
2. Workboat
:yup: And another Work Boat after that I believe. The first WB may be finished before SM's borders pop. If so, it should head to the next city (two clam site?) and the 2nd WB can net the Fish for SM.

Two clam city site
Initial build Lighthouse, followed by WB for the 2nd Clam?


Unit Moves

Worker 1

1. build Mine
2. move to CC if needed or build workshop on SM grassland
I think it should be finish the Mine 1S of SM, move to 1N of SM and start a {cottage or workshop}, and eventually be picked up by the Galley, to be taken with the Settler from CC to the two clam city site.

Cook

1. fog bust going due east
2. continue to fog bust
Continue exploring east in general, finding English territory if possible, or making new AI Civ contacts. Screen shots are always nice for new discoveries (hint, hint!).

Galley 1

1. ferry Worker 1 to CC if needed
I think :think: the plan is now to sail back to 1SE of FH and Sentry there, waiting for the Settler to be produced from CC. Then load the Settler & the Worker, and sail them to over to the two clam city site, unloading both on the plains hill. Galley would sentry there while new city is founded and Worker builds the mine. After mine is completed, Worker would board the Galley, which would take him back to CC/FH area to pick up the next Settler for the Marble site. Does this sound correct to everyone? May not be able to accomplish all of this during your turn set. :confused:

Warrior 1 > sentry in Fish Hills
Warrior 2 > sentry in Clam Chowder
Warrior 2 is actually just Warrior (the guy we started with; maybe rename him Warrior 0 :crazyeye: ). This is basically no change from existing positions.


WB "Magellan"
When whipped, sails to Crab, then north up the east coast of the crab island. Explores the crab island, and continues west as much as possible. Does this sound correct to everyone?


Unplanned Pauses (if any)

* when anything not talked about/new happens!!!
Perhaps a planned pause about 7 turns or so in, just to see how things are going, if no other unplanned pauses occur before then.

Spreadsheet details <<< not complete and need lots of help! :p

Also, do we want to have any diplomatic interactions with Vicky? Open Boarders treaty comes to mind.
I will wait for the change requests to pour in. :salute:
Good luck!
 
I'm still here but there is a lot in RL that's keeping me busy. I'm just waiting for a go ahead with the turn set. I can't really be too helpful with strategy since I'm in an eternal learning mode. :p Reading this thread is like taking a Civ4 class for me!
I do agree with Grifftavian on watching our economy. In my experience it's easy to tank the economy if there are too many cities too early.
 
My comments in blue

Okay, here's my rough draft PPP. It's not complete and need mega feedback! :D I will update this post as changes are made.

PPP Turn 108 to Turn 122

Diplomacy
Sign Open Borders treaty with VickyYep!

Research
Start Aesthetics
LiteratureYep...but slider set to 0%

Civics Changes
NoneYep!

City Builds

Clam Chowder

1. Forge
2. Library<<<< nope
1) Forge to start...
Switch to settler at T111 at size 6 and whip it T114
then back to Forge at size 3 and grow


Fish Hills

1. Workboat
2. Lighthouse<<<<nope, not this early at least, overflow into Pyramids for sure
1) Workboat whipped this turn...
2) Pyramids....
Debate about adding next build still going here I think...I still like 1 turn on a lighthouse and then a whip. We are going to work the NET forever, I think we get our 1 turn lighthouse on it now and reap the benefit of the extra :food: for the balance of the game. Maybe build/whip it a little later, but before we build any workers/settlers here I would think.



Stone Mountain


1. Monument
2. Workboat
Yep...Remember to take the Granary OUT of the que or it will auto build after the Monument is complete!

Unit Moves

Worker 1

1. build Mineyep
2. move to CC if needed or <<< no<<< build workshop on SM grasslandyep...but need to cancel on T114 and be ready to load galley with the settler on T115

Cook

1. fog bust going due east
2. continue to fog bust
Yep...get as far east and meet as many AI's as possible

Galley 1

1. ferry Worker 1 to CC if needednope....ferry settler and worker to 2 Clams, then head back so ready for next settler going to Marble.

Warrior 1 > sentry in Fish Hills
Warrior 2 > sentry in Clam Chowder


Unplanned Pauses (if any)

* when anything not talked about/new happens!!!
Yep...
also...meeting new AI's


Spreadsheet details <<< not complete and need lots of help! :p

Also, do we want to have any diplomatic interactions with Vicky? Open Boarders treaty comes to mind.yep...covered earlier
I will wait for the change requests to pour in. :salute:
I am not sure which tile use spreadsheet we are currently going to use. But I think we are close.....Thanks for sticking with us!!!!!

WB "Magellan"
When whipped, sails to Crab, then north up the east coast of the crab island. Explores the crab island, and continues west as much as possible. Does this sound correct to everyone?
This sounds right to me...generally working its way westward as much as possible.
 
This is not totally true...in one of my tests, 2 Clams grew to size 2 on T129 and worked 2 nets, grew to size 3 on T135 and added Mine and grew to size 4 on T144 and added WS. It built a LH straight through with no whip, whipped the Granary on T147 and was ready for next build on T148 and would be our 3rd largest city for the foreseeable future with a base of 7:hammers:.

I'm not sure which test game report this was. I was able to reverse-engineer this position by spreadsheet-settling T116, netting T125, to grow and net T129, to grow T135 working Pmine, to finish LH T141, to grow T144 working Pworkshop, 2-whip granary T147, and put out a warrior and 83 base :hammers: on a wonder by T160 (size 5, :mad: decaying T162, 25:food: in the box). Call this game A).

Then I tried three variants, each getting the lighthouse faster than the above.

B) Fast-whip lighthouse
As A), but T129 I whipped the lighthouse (spurning the second net), regrowing onto 2 nets T136, growing onto Pmine T141, juggling a warrior build to 2-whip the granary T147 again, to have 88 base :hammers: on the wonder by T160 (size 5, :mad: decaying T162, 24:food: in the box). So this game was slightly better on :hammers:, and could wait 7 turns for the second WB. It worked the Pmine less, but got its net extra :hammers: from the extra 1-whip.

C) Slower-whip lighthouse
I was unconvinced that was best, so I started as A) and at T129 I worked both nets until about to grow to size 3, whipped the lighthouse then (T134), so that I grew back T135 to size two to start working both augmented nets. Then as for B), producing 94 base :hammers: on the wonder by T160 (size 5, :mad: decaying T164, 24:food: in the box). This looks pretty good.

D) Fast-whip lighthouse with slower second WB
I tried the effect of slowing the second workboat in B). At T129 I whipped the lighthouse, regrowing onto nets+Pmine T136, but switching to the nets when "available" on T139. Again juggling stuff, I grew T143 onto Pmine and 2-whipped the granary T149. At T160, I had 92 base :hammers: on the wonder (size 4, :mad: decaying T164, 34:food: in the box). So this is basically as good as C), but put less stress on the empire to supply two fast WBs. We'll be :) at size 5 at the same time as C).

E) Fast-whip lighthouse with even slower second WB
As for D), but the second WB was "available" on T142. At T160, 92 base :hammers: on the wonder (size 4, :mad: decaying T166, 27:food: in the box). All this did was push the timing back slightly.

Conclusion
  • Out at T160, the extra hammers from a lighthouse whip show up as profit even though we've been smaller and worked less of the Pmine (i.e. game B is better than A)
  • Getting a lighthouse reasonably fast is a good thing, but "reasonable" varies with the number of good workable :food: tiles that benefit from it (i.e. game C is better than B).
  • Because we have a good :hammers: tile to work in PC, slowing the second WB is not a bad thing (i.e. game C, D and even E, are about equivalent, but D&E get their edge from the Pmine, not the early augmented nets).

These augment my conclusions from post #723.
 
I used the optimizations and recommendations about smaller city development I found in this post
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10322839&postcount=713
and others concerning PC and focused on building LH early in smaller cities.

My test game statistics at the start of T150

CC 5 Pop, 126/525 on Great Library 16/75 on Trireme, 23/45 food (Granary, LH, Monument, forge, Library)
FH 2 Pop 4 Overflow hammers 0/90 on LH 29/36 food (Granary, Oracle, Pyramids)
SM 2 Pop 38/90 Granary 25/36 food (LH, Monument)
PC 3 Pop 30/90 Granary 12/39 food (LH)
MC 1 Pop 7 Overflow hammers 0/90 Granary 3/33 (LH)
BF 2 Pop 19/90 Granary 0/36 (LH)
Crabby 1 Pop 4/90 LH 8/33 food
Pigs 1 Pop 0/90 LH 0/33 food
Total pop 17

2 workers, 10 nets planted, 2 workboats exploring, 1 galley, 2 warriors

research is 25 sustainable with +1 gold

Ron's latest posted test game start of T151

CC 7 Pop 51/75 trireme 26/51 food (Granary, LH, Monument, forge, Library)
FH 3 Pop 0 OF hammers 16/39 food (LH)
SM 3 Pop 25/90 granary 12/39 food (LH, Monument)
PC 3 Pop 34/90 LH 9/39 food
MC 3 Pop 17/90 Granary 10/39 food (LH)
BF 1 Pop 26/90 LH
Pigs 1 Pop 5/90 Granary 21/33 food
total pop (21)

3 workers, 9 nets, 2 exploring workboats, 1 galley, 2 warriors

research is 33 sustainable with +1 gold

Comparison what my game has/lacks compared to ron's
LH in PC (+45 raw hammers)
LH in BF (+45 raw hammers)
extra fishing net (+45 raw hammers)
126 on GLib (+63 "raw" hammers)
16 on trireme vs ron's 51 (-35 "raw" hammers)
4 OF in FH (+4)
SM's granary +13 hammers (38 vs. 25)
PC granary partial (+30 raw hammers)
ron's partial LH in PC (-17 raw hammers)
MC (-10 raw hammers (7 OF vs. 17 hammers on granary)
BF (+6 raw hammers) (19 on granary vs. 26 on LH)
Pigs (-5 raw hammers for partial granary)
Crabby (+ 2 raw on LH)

net +186 hammers

Food
CC (-3 food)
FH (+13 food)
SM (+13 food)
PC (+3 food)
MC (-7 food)
BF (-32 food)
Pigs (-21 food)
Crabby (+8 food)

total -26 food in bins

1 fewer worker (-90 food/hammer)
1 extra settler (+149 food/hammer)
+59 food/hammer

ron's 4 extra pop could be converted to 180 hammers through whipping

Conclusion my latest test game vs. ron's latest test game
I'm up 6 hammer (assuming 4 of ron's pop could be whipped for 180 hammers)
I'm up 59 food/hammer since I produced a settler rather than a worker
I'm down 26 food stored in food bins
(but this is with 1 fewer turns, so my production on T150 amounts to...
+43 food/+22 raw hammers)
So with T150 production my latest test game is up 17 food in bins, 28 hammers, 59 food/hammers (extra settler vs. extra worker)

I have more infrastructure that I've whipped a bit earlier (so whip anger might decay a few turns earlier)

biggest difference is producing 1 more settler vs 1 more worker
(more cities busts more fog so less likely to get as many enemy galleys)
(more cities increases maintenance that isn't quite offset by trade route and tiles, but situation will improve quickly with currency (and somewhat soon whipped courthouses)

Ron has a research advantage at T151 of 8 sustainable / turn.

I hope this helps people decide what is the better option.

Personally my perspective is my latest test (aided by mabraham's optimization and the group's discussion on how to develop the smaller cities) has an edge on hammers and food and # of cities at a small cost of research. However I believe with the plans whips of courthouse in the next 40 turns, the planned pick up of currency in the next 40 turns, and the likely greater number of AI trade routes it is to our advantage to position ourselves with more cities settled as fast as possible up at least to the 8 in the test game. I believe it will have a long term benefit as well as the short term food/hammer benefits documented.
 

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