Middle-Earth:Lord of the Mods (XI)

Also, Rohir apparently means ‘knight’ or ‘lord’ according to TEA. If it isn’t going to be used as an adjective, then it could be a cool unit.

Click to expand...

As for as my knowledge goes of sindarin, hirrim means masters/lords (being the plural form of heru) as in the Rohirrim (Masters of Horses) or the sindarin name for dwarves Gonnhirrim(Masters of Stone), but this is just deduced from the appendix of my Second Edition Silmarillion, so perhaps Rohir could work...

Re: gallic swordsman --- it doesn't cost as much as the sword, does it?

Ok, I get the point re:ladros

I found Roquen as a "knight" in the UT, in the section on gladden fields.

RRnut

Originally posted by Celeborn
As for as my knowledge goes of sindarin, hirrim means masters/lords (being the plural form of heru) as in the Rohirrim (Masters of Horses) or the sindarin name for dwarves Gonnhirrim(Masters of Stone), but this is just deduced from the appendix of my Second Edition Silmarillion, so perhaps Rohir could work...

Click to expand...

According to my book, "Rohirrim" comes from the roots "ro" = horse, "hir" = lord, "rim" = host. This is vindicated by the name of one of Elrond's sons, Elrohir, "Star-horse lord".

Also, I can't find either in my book, but I'm fairly sure it's "Eorlingas", not "Eorlings". That's how it's titled on the TTT soundtrack, anyway, with the track "Forth Eorlingas". I can't verify that it's the correct form, though. My book is sketchy on the mannish languages, mainly because Tolkien didn't explore them as thoroughly as Quenya and Sindarin.


EDIT: By the way, I don't think I've said what my book is, hehe. No clue how easy this would be to find, but it's "The Languages of Tolkien's Middle-Earth" by Ruth S. Noel. I found it one day in the fantasy section of a local Barnes & Nobel store. It's expensive for it's size ($12 cover price for a small, ~200 page paperback), but I've used it extensively for all sorts of purposes and from all I can tell it's about as authentic as you can get without resurrecting Tolkien himself.

Id say go for Rohan/Rohirric (man from rohan. A rohirric warrior)

Well, now that you mention it, I dont really know where 'rohirric' cvame from. Mithaden??? I think it sounds cool though...

Some suggestions for Elvish unit art and names:

1st-2nd Era Defender: Embryodead’s Wood Elf Spearman “Elvish Spearman”
3rd-4th Era Defender: Kinboat’s High Elf Spearman : “Elvish Infantry”

1st-2nd Era Offensive: ?Art work? “Elvish Swordsman”
3rd-4th Era Offensive: Kinboat’s High Elf Swordsman “Long Swordsman”

1st Era Cavalry [Archer] :
Kryten’s Horse Archer “Mounted Bowman”
2nd Era Cavalry [Archer] (wood-elf) :
Embryodead’s Wood Elv Cav. “Cavalry Archer”
3rd-4th Era Cavalry [Archer] (wood-elf) :
Aok Cav. Archer “Armored Cavalry”
2nd Era Cavalry (high elf) :
Embryodead’s Dark Elf Cav. “Elvish Rider”
3rd-4th Era Cavalry(high elf) :
Embryodead’s High Elf Cav. “Elvish Cavalry”

Still to do:
1st Era Missile:
2nd Era Missile:
3rd Era Missile:
4th Era Missile:

Obviously these names are bad, but my, uh, Sindarian is a little rusty.
I think I’ll post the Orcs tomorrow.

I'm sorry I've not posted here in a while. I thought I'd contribute a critique of nomenclature to compensate ...

Isengard
Dunlending\Dunlendings

Good, if we're determined to carry out the identification Isengard=Dunland. I can see reasons both for and against.

Gondor
Gondorian\Gondorians

Good.

Arnor
Dúnedain\Dúnedain

Dúnedain as adjective is a bit questionable. I don't think Tolkien used it, but in post-JRRT work, the form Dúnedainic is used.

Númenor
Númenórean\Númenóreans

Good.

Rohan
Eorling\Eorlings

Why not Rohirric and Rohirrim?

Northmen
Northman\Northmen

Good.

Noldor
Noldo\Noldorin

Adj should be Noldorin, and (plural) noun Noldor

Sindar
Sinda\Sindarin

Adj Sindarin, pl noun Sindar

Moriquendi
Moriquender\Moriquenderin

Adj Moriquenderin, plural noun Moriquendi

The Dwarves
Dwarf\Dwarves

I'd suggest 'Dwarvish' as adjective.

Mordor
Mordorian\Mordorians

Good. Mornhoth was voted down?

Angmar
Angmarrim\Angmarrim

I'd suggest "Angmarric" as adj, based on Rohirric. If that's not cool, I'll try to think up something else - Angmarrim is fine as noun but odd as adjective.

Harad
Southron\Southrons

Good.

Easterlings
Easterling\Easterlings

Good.

The Shire
Hobbit\Hobbits

Good.

Zurai: I have say that Ruth Noel's work does not have a very good reputation among people interested in Tolkien's linguistic work, and since it's publication, significant amounts of new Tolkienian material have been published, which sinks some of her conjectures. It's absolutely not useless, but should be treated with some skepticism.

Suggestions for "Tolkienized" names (note that Sindarin and Quenyan words can be used fluidly in the same sentence, phrase, or even in the same compound word, but in this case I'm keeping compound words within the same language):

Originally posted by PCHighway
1st-2nd Era Defender: Embryodead’s Wood Elf Spearman “Elvish Spearman”
3rd-4th Era Defender: Kinboat’s High Elf Spearman : “Elvish Infantry”

Click to expand...

Sindarin for Elf = Edhel (Edhil plural). Quenya for Elf = Elda (Eldar plural).
No word for Spear or Spearman, but "Maegdil" is Sindarin for Sharp Point; "Maikatil" is the Quenyan form.
This gives us, for example, "Edhel Maegdil", "Elven Maegdil", "Edhel Spearman", etc.

For the more advanced version, there's a few options. No word for Infantry, Soldier, Warrior, or anything similar, but...
"Lauriëm" or "Lauriëmbe" means "golden mesh", referring to their armor.
"Silmetil" means "starlight point". The Elves were particularly fond of starlight and it's not that far-fetched a name.
"Astaldorimbë" means "valiant host". "Astaldo" by itself is "valiant".
That gives us such combinations as "Lauriëmbe Edhel", "Astaldo Elda", "Elven Silmetil", etc.

1st-2nd Era Offensive: ?Art work? “Elvish Swordsman”
3rd-4th Era Offensive: Kinboat’s High Elf Swordsman “Long Swordsman”

Click to expand...

This is easier, since there's actually a word for swordsman: "Macar" is Quenyan, "Vagor" is Sindarin.
Also, sword = "Macil" in Quenyan and "Megil" in Sindarin.
That gives us "Edhel Macar", "Elven Vagor", "Lauriëmacil Elda" (Golden Sword Elf), etc.

1st Era Cavalry [Archer] :
Kryten’s Horse Archer “Mounted Bowman”
2nd Era Cavalry [Archer] (wood-elf) :
Embryodead’s Wood Elv Cav. “Cavalry Archer”
3rd-4th Era Cavalry [Archer] (wood-elf) :
Aok Cav. Archer “Armored Cavalry”
2nd Era Cavalry (high elf) :
Embryodead’s Dark Elf Cav. “Elvish Rider”
3rd-4th Era Cavalry(high elf) :
Embryodead’s High Elf Cav. “Elvish Cavalry”

Click to expand...

Whee, that's quite a list. Here we go....

Horse = (S) Roch, Ro; (Q) Rokko.
Bow = Cú; (Q) Lúva.
to ride = (S) Nor-.
Swift = (Q) Linte.
Silver = (S) Celeb; (Q) Telep, Telpë
Royal/Noble = Ar, Ara, Arat
Iron = (S) Ang; (Q) Anga
High = Ar(a), Arat; (Q) Oro, Tan, Tar, Tára
Glittering White = (S) Silivren
Champion = (Q) Aráto
Battle = Dagnir, Ndak, Dagor

That gives us tons of combinations. Here's some that sound good to me: "Lintelúva Rokko" (Swiftbow Horse), "Elda Telparáto" (Elf Silver Champion), "Aredhel Dagoroch" (High Elf Battle-horse), "Arsilivren Cúdagor" (Glittering White Noble Battle-bow), "Elven Norlinte" (Elven Swiftrider), etc.

Obviously these names are bad, but my, uh, Sindarian is a little rusty.
I think I’ll post the Orcs tomorrow.

Click to expand...

There's quite the poetic justice here - you're helping me with names in the thread for my personal mod, and here I am helping you with names for your (collective) mod

I won't be able to help much with Orcs though. There's very, very little Black Speech to draw on (more than Khuzdul, the Dwarven language, though - Black Speech at least has the inscription on the One Ring, "Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul" .... yes, I just typed that entirely from memory).

Still wish we could have "creatures of mordor" over mordorians, but thats just a personal thing.
But overall no new complaints/comments/stupid ramblings/scratch that last one, I'm doing it now/Canada/hi

Originally posted by The Last Conformist
Zurai: I have say that Ruth Noel's work does not have a very good reputation among people interested in Tolkien's linguistic work, and since it's publication, significant amounts of new Tolkienian material have been published, which sinks some of her conjectures. It's absolutely not useless, but should be treated with some skepticism.

Click to expand...

Ah well. Do you know if there's a more recent/accurate work published that I could get my hands on (for my own purposes)? I use the Noel book for creating names for myself in various games, as well as for units, etc.

I don't know of any better published book, but the Ardalambion web page by Helge Fauskanger is probably the best resource available for Tolkienian linguistics.

We do have a Quenya word for Spearman: ehtyar.

The Sindarin for "swordsman" is actually magor - Zurai's vagor is a modified from occuring in certain syntactic positions (eg with the definite article i vagor "the swordsman").

Edit: Quenya words for "warrior": ohtar, ohtatyaro, mahtar. In Sindarin maethor.

I think I've already mentioned Q roquen "knight". The Sindarin form is rochben.

Ciryamo "mariner" might be useful for Noldorin amphibious infantry.

Edit3: "Elvish" is in Q Quenderin or, more usually, Eldarin, in Sindarin you've got Edhelen.

Edit4: And I might again point out that Ruth Noel nonewithstanding, Q lúva is only attested with the sense "bow (as geometrical shape)". Since we have both cú and quinga for the weapon, there's really no reason to stray further from attested models than necessary. I've already suggested quingaquen for "archer". More hypothetical, but still based on attested patterns is S pengdir for the same.

Edit6: The form Rohirrim is a Gondorian pronunciation of pure Sindarin Rochirrim (similarly "Rohan" for S Rochan(d)), which breaks down as roch-hir-rim "horse-loard-folk". We're told that rohir in the name Elrohir (again apparently a Gondorian form - the common speech did not have medial ach-laut) is meant to indicate "(hu-)man" (just as el- indicates "elf"), so at some point the meaning was apparently simply "(mounted) man", but it seems reasonable to assume that once the world had been adopted as an ethnonym for the people of Eorl, it could no longer be used in this wider meaning.

Originally posted by PCHighway
Some suggestions for Elvish unit art and names:

1st-2nd Era Defender: Embryodead’s Wood Elf Spearman “Elvish Spearman”
3rd-4th Era Defender: Kinboat’s High Elf Spearman : “Elvish Infantry”

1st-2nd Era Offensive: ?Art work? “Elvish Swordsman”
3rd-4th Era Offensive: Kinboat’s High Elf Swordsman “Long Swordsman”

1st Era Cavalry [Archer] :
Kryten’s Horse Archer “Mounted Bowman”
2nd Era Cavalry [Archer] (wood-elf) :
Embryodead’s Wood Elv Cav. “Cavalry Archer”
3rd-4th Era Cavalry [Archer] (wood-elf) :
Aok Cav. Archer “Armored Cavalry”
2nd Era Cavalry (high elf) :
Embryodead’s Dark Elf Cav. “Elvish Rider”
3rd-4th Era Cavalry(high elf) :
Embryodead’s High Elf Cav. “Elvish Cavalry”

Still to do:
1st Era Missile:
2nd Era Missile:
3rd Era Missile:
4th Era Missile:

Obviously these names are bad, but my, uh, Sindarian is a little rusty.
I think I’ll post the Orcs tomorrow.

Click to expand...

Perhaps I'm missing something but weren't several ballistic elf units done by aaglo?

I agree with TLC about Rohirric/Rohirrim, and think he has reason regarding Angmarric/Angmarrim.

Dunlending\Dunlendings

Good, if we're determined to carry out the identification Isengard=Dunland. I can see reasons both for and against.

Click to expand...

I also see reasons against this. The isengard orcs are no dunlendlings. We could use just Isengard/isengard...


I still hold Mithadan to that promise that I won't have to learn Sindarin though. I think outlandish names should only be used if there are no good English names to be found. So the simple ones, like "Elvish Archer"/"Elvish Horse Archer" should definitely be used, IMO.

PCH: If you had joined the WH beta ( ), you'd know that embryodead has made an elf with a two-hand sword, using the same props as Kinboat did for his elves. IIRC emb call this a "Swordmaster" in his mod, and names like this works for me, especially if it's a unit that comes in a later age.

I dunno if its attested, but my Sprachgefühl (you may get away with not learning Sindarin, but German is another matter! ) says adj/noun for Isengard should be Isengarder/Isengarders if we want something derived from "Isengard".

And mrtn, despite his unfortunate habit of carousing with kangaroos, is probably right about the desirability of avoiding outlandish names. I just got a bit carried away by Zurai there. "Noldorin Heavy Horse" might sound bland, but it's obvious what it is, which is more than you can say of "Roqueni Noldorini".

AHHHHH More names!!! Don't like learning languages, so I'll go stick my head in the mud of the mod for a while....

Just looked at the list of Elvish units again. A big question that sticks out is -- why are elvish units !!cheaper!! than mannish units in later ages? I thought that elves faded in later eras?

RRnut

Originally posted by The Last Conformist
And mrtn, despite his unfortunate habit of carousing with kangaroos, is probably right about the desirability of avoiding outlandish names. I just got a bit carried away by Zurai there. "Noldorin Heavy Horse" might sound bland, but it's obvious what it is, which is more than you can say of "Roqueni Noldorini".

Click to expand...

Yeah, if you want the mod to be "mass market" it's probably better to keep the names more accessible. As I said in my original post, I don't know how you guys are wanting to do the names. My suggestions are kind of at the extreme end, mainly because I personally prefer them that way (No one has a problem with Impi in the original game, do they?).

Looks like you guys are getting pretty close to finishing this bad boy. This mod is the only reason I ever joined this forum and also what got me into modding Civ again.

The Last Conformist-
I'm sorry I've not posted here in a while. I thought I'd contribute a critique of nomenclature to compensate ...

Click to expand...

Yeah, you sent us into a mad scatter. I’ve been trying to find out what the plural noun for Mornoth was for weeks.

The Last Conformist-
Arnor
Dúnedain\Dúnedain

Dúnedain as adjective is a bit questionable. I don't think Tolkien used it, but in post-JRRT work, the form Dúnedainic is used.

Rohan
Eorling\Eorlings

Why not Rohirric and Rohirrim?

Northmen
Northman\Northmen

Good.

Noldor
Noldo\Noldorin

Adj should be Noldorin, and (plural) noun Noldor

Sindar
Sinda\Sindarin

Adj Sindarin, pl noun Sindar

Moriquendi
Moriquender\Moriquenderin

Adj Moriquenderin, plural noun Moriquendi

The Dwarves
Dwarf\Dwarves

I'd suggest 'Dwarvish' as adjective.


Angmar
Angmarrim\Angmarrim

I'd suggest "Angmarric" as adj, based on Rohirric. If that's not cool, I'll try to think up something else - Angmarrim is fine as noun but odd as adjective.

Click to expand...

Thanks, I changed everything to your suggestions but Mordor. No, we never took a vote, which we can do now. I don’t see the point in making the closely related names of “Gondor” and “Mordor”have such large differences. Then as Mrtn points out, Mornhoth sounds like something alien to LOTR.

I’m going to ignore the huge amount of funky names for now. I thought we already agreed that names like “Edhel Macar” and “quingaquen” were out of the question? Still, it seems that you Language lovers and Mrtn will need to compromise.

aaminion00-
Perhaps I'm missing something but weren't several ballistic elf units done by aaglo?

Click to expand...

We don’t have any proof that Elves, or any other factions but Mordor, used siege units. That said, we will probably add them in later, depending on how bland the beta is .

mrtn-
I also see reasons against this. The isengard orcs are no dunlendlings. We could use just Isengard/isengard...

Click to expand...

That is true, we can’t have the ‘greenskins’ being called Dunlendlings. Then again, we could always assume that the Orcs were looked at as slaves. Remember the Mannish guard tower merry and Pippin found? I believe this shows that the “men” got the more cushiony jobs. If we go by the proposed unit lines, Mannish units will be prevalent all the way up to the late 3rd era.

mrtn-
I still hold Mithadan to that promise that I won't have to learn Sindarin though. I think outlandish names should only be used if there are no good English names to be found. So the simple ones, like "Elvish Archer"/"Elvish Horse Archer" should definitely be used, IMO.

Click to expand...

Do you want to have mannish horse archers? If so, what graphics? The Keshik? I don’t have any desire to have other horse archers in the game, except perhaps Rohan. So why not just name it “Horse Archer” or my preferred “Cavalry Archer” (sounds more elegant) .

mrtn-
PCH: If you had joined the WH beta ( ), you'd know that embryodead has made an elf with a two-hand sword, using the same props as Kinboat did for his elves. IIRC emb call this a "Swordmaster" in his mod, and names like this works for me, especially if it's a unit that comes in a later age.

Click to expand...

I want to join the beta, but I don’t have the time to beta test a mod, a series of scenario’s, then try to make my own mod on top of that. It would be disrespectful to embryodead if I joined his beta and simply stole his idea’s for LOTM .

Swordmaster sounds cool, but I’m don’t like it for LOTR, sounds to RPGish IMHO.
This leads me to that compromise I propose. Why not mix the two together? If we used names (where necessary) such as “Edhel Bowman”, or “High Elven Roquen”, it wouldn’t be so bad. It would be no worse than “Hawach’a” or “Keshik” at least.

RRnut-
AHHHHH More names!!! Don't like learning languages, so I'll go stick my head in the mud of the mod for a while....

Just looked at the list of Elvish units again. A big question that sticks out is -- why are elvish units !!cheaper!! than mannish units in later ages? I thought that elves faded in later eras?

Click to expand...

That was a problem for me, too . When the Elves only have two units where other civs have four, you can’t make them as expensive as the last age one, or as inexpensive as the first one. If we did boost the expenses up, we would also need to boost the stats. Do you really want a 100 cost, 12 attack Elven infantry attacking your 6 defense unit? We could make the Elven units require 1 population, but even that sounds extreme .

tjedge1-
Looks like you guys are getting pretty close to finishing this bad boy. This mod is the only reason I ever joined this forum and also what got me into modding Civ again.

Click to expand...

Having a unique unit named after something from the real world is a little different than having a entire unit line come from a word most don’t know. We aren’t talking “Noldor” here, we are talking Roquen. That name is never mentioned in LOTR, or The Hobbit. I’m willing to bet it’s not in the Silmarillion either. Basically, we would be using completely foreign words to the trilogy.

tjedge1-
Looks like you guys are getting pretty close to finishing this bad boy. This mod is the only reason I ever joined this forum and also what got me into modding Civ again.

Click to expand...

Ar, I remember when ye were just a laddie, with yer berserk avatar and yer less than100 post count .

Because the 'code' format is giving me headaches, here it is regular syle:

Defense unit 1
1\2\1 (0HPB) 15 shields

Defense unit 2
2\3\1 (0HPB) 30 shields

Defense unit 3
3\5\1 (0HPB) 50 shields

Defense unit 4
5\7\1 (0HPB) 65 shields
0 Range Bombard(4)


Offense unit 1
2\2\1 (0HPB) 20 shields

Offense unit 2
5\2\1 (0HPB) 40 shields

Offense unit 3
7\4\1 (0HPB) 60 shields

Offense unit 4
10\7\1 (0HPB) 80 shields ATAR



Range unit 1
2\1\1 (0HPB) 10 shields
0 Range Bombard(2) *unwheeled

Range unit 2
5\1\1 (0HPB) 30 shields
0 Range Bombard(4) *unwheeled

Range unit 3
8\2\1 (0HPB) 50 shields
0 Range Bombard(7) *unwheeled

Range unit 4
12\2\1 (0HPB) 70 shields
0 Range Bombard(2) *unwheeled



Cavalry Unit 1
5\2\2 (0HPB) 40 shields
2nd ERA

Cavalry Unit 2*
8\6\2 (0HPB) 70 shields
4th ERA


Artillery unit 1
Str:6 Rng:1 RoF:1
2nd ERA

Artillery unit 1
Str:8 Rng:2 RoF:2
4th ERA

For the record, I'm actually in favour of Mordorian and Mordorians myself. However, last time I was here the general opinion seemed to be for Sindarin terms, so I tried to supply such.

I'd be unhappy with a construction like "Edhel Bowman" - I can't think of any Sindarin construction in which a word like edhel is used as any old adjectve. "High Elven Roquen", with a Quenya noun used as a noun is better. For reasons of syntax and agreement, I think it's basically safer to use the Elvish word as the head (noun) in such hybrid names.

Edit: PCHighway, did you see my suggestion of Isengarder/Isengarders for Isengard? Solves the inappropriateness of having "Dunlendish" orcs. I do not have my books at hand to check myself, but the Encyclopaedia of Arda indicates that JRRT used these forms himself for Saruman's troops and servants.